Intro: 00:01

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

Intro: 00:06

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. The podcast to launch progress and excel your career as a privacy Pro.

Intro: 00:17

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy.

Intro: 00:21

Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals and hear real stories and top tips from the people who have been where you want to get to.

Intro: 00:32

We're an official IAPP training partner.

Intro: 00:36

We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

Intro: 00:40

So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you are an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Jamilla: 00:55

Hi everyone, and welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast. My name is Jamilla, and I'm a data privacy analyst at Kazient Privacy experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislation, as well as any key developments and decisions by supervisory authorities. So we have a special episode for you on today's podcast. I'm interviewing our very own Jamal Ahmed. It's been six months since the Privacy Pros Academy was launched and six months since our podcasts have begun. So let's hear a bit more from our CEO, the man who needs no introduction, but I'm going to introduce him anyway. Jamal Ahmed is Fellow of Information Privacy and CEO at Kazient Privacy Experts. Jamal is an established and comprehensively qualified privacy professional with a demonstrable track record solving enterprise-wide data privacy and data security challenges for SMEs through complex global organizations. He is a Certified Information Privacy Manager, Certified Information Privacy Professional, Certified EU GDPR practitioner, Master NLP Practitioner, Prince II Practitioner and he holds a Bachelor of Arts in Business with Law. He's a revered global privacy thought leader, world class trainer, and published author for publications such as Thompson, Reuters, the Independent, Euro News, as well as numerous industry publications. Jamal makes regular appearances in the media, on television, radio and in print, and has been dubbed the King of GDPR by the BBC. To date, he has provided privacy and GDPR compliance solutions to organizations across six continents and in 30 jurisdictions, helping to safeguard the personal data of over a billion data subjects worldwide. I would have to take a breath after that introduction. Thank you for being in the hot seat today, Jamal.

Jamal: 02:38

Yes. Thank you, Jamilla. I mean, when you first sent the notes for today's podcast, I was like, Jamila, who's the guest? And she was like, no, you are the guest. Okay, this will be interesting.

Jamilla: 02:48

Yeah. You've helped me ask questions for the last six months, and now we're going to be asking you some questions. Are you ready?

Jamal: 02:54

I am ready. Back in the hot seat again. I'm looking forward to this. Let's dive in.

Jamilla: 02:58

Well, as we always do on this podcast, we're going to start off with an ice breaker question. If you could have any other job, you can't have anything to do with data privacy. What would you do if money was no object as well?

Jamal: 03:11

If I could have any job in the world, I would probably work for a humanitarian charity.

Jamilla: 03:17

Nice.

Jamal: 03:18

I would love to go to different places and help people in their local communities. And if people are suffering, I'd like to have a little part if I can, to alleviate that. But more than that, what I would really love to do is to really help empower them. Sometimes people just need a helping hand and if I can help, that would be amazing. I can't think of anything I'd love to do more.

Jamilla: 03:37

Oh, that's lovely. And humanitarian work is something that's close to your heart. I saw a picture over the weekend of you jumping out of a plane for charity.

Jamal: 03:45

That's right. It's something that has been embedded in me from a very young age. When I was in primary school, I think I was in year three, I first started raising funds for charity and that was to feed the birds in our school gardens. I raised some money, we got a bed food, we got a bed bath and we joined the RSPB. From there on I went on to some more walks for the WWF, the World Wildlife Federation, it's something that's been part of me for a long time. And in fact, last month I was awarded for some of the humanitarian efforts, and the philanthropic efforts over the last year, helping lots of different causes. Something that is very close to my heart. It's also something that I feel is out of my giving back. And I think it's important not just to take what we can, but also to give back. There needs to be a balance and when we give, it really feels good. I would encourage everyone to really go and give as much as you can because when you give, it actually brings you more.

Jamilla: 04:33

Wow, you started early. For those of you who aren't in the UK, year three is around seven or eight years old, very young, and he started his humanitarian work.

Jamal: 04:42

Something like that. My age changes every year, it’s hard to keep up.

Jamilla: 04:45

Let's get down to it. Let's talk about Jamal Ahmed behind the suit.

Jamal: 04:50

Yeah, that sounds interesting.

Jamilla: 04:51

You raised money for a lot of animal charities and yet you don't even want your cats next to you. So when did that change? What happened?

Jamal: 04:58

It's not that I don't want my cats next to me, it's that the bloody fur gets annoying when they start shedding.

Jamilla: 05:04

You can get hairless cats, I think. So you started your humanitarian work seven or eight years old. What did you do after that? Secondary school? Were you involved in many charitable causes?

Jamal: 05:17

I was always involved in lots of charitable causes. And I think one of the things I remember about secondary school was raising money to go on this walk for WWF. I think we went to the forest. It was really nice. And we managed to raise a lot of money. I think we raised the money for some animals that were on the verge of extinction to raise some awareness of that animal at that time. Animals are something that have always been very close to my heart. I know what you're going to say, Jamila. Why am I always complaining about my wife's cats? Well, yeah, they are close to my heart, but that doesn't mean I want them close to my heart physically.

Jamilla: 05:47

And we can see it there. You call them your wife's cats and not your cats.

Jamal: 05:50

You can see I'm distancing myself away from them.

Jamilla: 05:54

So after secondary school, what about college? Sixth form, university?

Jamal: 05:59

ject. We call this the Enable: 1000

Jamilla: 09:36

I can see what you said about giving them the tools and the equipment definitely would empower them. And also it means that they can make things from where they're from and from their own cultures, which I guess would make them feel a little bit more at home. I mean, they're in the worst of conditions, so any kind of little glimmer of something that can make them feel a little bit happy would be amazing.

Jamal: 09:56

ole campaign was called Iftar: 1000

Jamilla: 13:21

Wow.

Jamal: 13:21

So the logistics behind that was amazing. I just remember I took a second and I took back and I was just looking and everything was just buzzing. Everything was working as it was meant to be. And here I am managing a team of volunteers. No one does this for a living. I'm just watching the way everything was flowing, it was so beautiful. And the best thing was when these boxes actually got into Syria and then they started being distributed. I don't know if you're familiar with, he was recently on the BBC talking about the aid work that he was doing there recently. He actually went and distributed these things and the most beautiful thing that he did was he actually distributed these things in the schools. So he went to the schools and he was giving a little tuna in the packages to take home. And he's made a video of these little children running around and so happy with all the stuff they got. And the other thing that we did is we wanted to show our human site, every box has a handwritten note from all our volunteers. And when you watch the video, in fact, you know what I'm going to do? I'm going to put the link into the video in the podcast so anyone that's interested can watch it and you can see him holding it up. By coincidence, the box that he opens happens to have the message that Rahena my wife put together. So on the camera, you can see he's got it up and you can see Rahena's name on there. And I was like, how random is that? Of the thousands of boxes, the one he picked happen to have her message in it. So it just was so rewarding and so touching for us to see the efforts of everything that we put in finally be materialized over there in the hands of the people who it was intended for.

Jamilla: 14:44

And how did she feel?

Jamal: 14:46

I think her heart melted because she got really emotional. That was really beautiful.

Jamilla: 14:50

That's amazing. And just shows what the power of people coming together and what they can achieve.

Jamal: 14:55

Absolutely. And then after that, we had a few more campaigns. And my family, my friends, we went on a bit of a campaign. Bangladesh gets flooded quite a lot, as you know my parents are from Bangladesh. They were showing all of these images. Do you think there's anything you could do or anyone can do to help? And that's when we launched the Rice for Life campaign. Rice is a staple food for people in Bangladesh, especially in the district where they've been flooded. A lot of their trade is actually on rice. So they have the paddy fields where they grow the rice. And what they do is they barter that rice for other things, other goods and services. They would actually barter the rice, that's what they trade with. And when the flood came and destroyed their crop, it doesn't just mean that they would have no means of feeding themselves, but it means they actually have no means of acquiring anything else because everything was wiped out. We managed the Rice for Life campaign and that's where you see where I jumped out of a plane. And I encourage friends and family and anyone crazy enough to know we had to jump out of a plane to raise some funds and it was amazing. We managed to over exceed on the targets that we had in place. And we managed to distribute that rice out to all of the amazing people.

Jamilla: 15:55

I think we can take from what you've just told us, you've got an amazing heart. You're very persuasive, definitely to get people jumping out of a plane and I think you're very dedicated and you just want to do good in the world.

Jamal: 16:07

I think being able to persuade and influence has really been instrumental, especially when it comes to giving back. Remember I told you about the ASDA story? ASDA car park? When we first arrived at Asda they were like, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, we're just collecting all this stuff. You can't do that here. Why not? Because our car park is private property. We can't have people collecting here. You can't be doing this on our premises. It's just not acceptable, there's a policy, you need to go right to our head office. It needs to go through a proper formal policy. Wow, this is not going to happen. So after a persuasive conversation with the key stakeholders in that Asda, no locations mentioned, we were able to continue. Not only were we able to continue, but we were also then allowed to have presence at the entrance of their stores. We were able to talk about the other campaigns, so people coming in, we would explain what we're doing and people were able to give those gifts.

Jamilla: 16:57

And for anyone who doesn't know, Asda is a supermarket in the UK, the American equivalent, I guess, is a Walmart.

Jamal: 17:04

I think they're part of the Walmart family. They were acquired by two brothers based in the north of England. Blackburn I believe.

Jamilla: 17:12

I knew it began with a B, but there we are. With your hard work in humanitarian work, you've been very determined and I think once you set your mind on something, it definitely happens, which leads me on nicely to Privacy pros Academy, you were determined. It started six months ago. It's been a great success. Tell me about it, how has it been?

Jamal: 17:34

It's been an amazing journey. Every day, regardless of how busy they are, whatever's happening, a handful of people never met me before, never seen me, never spoken to me, or send me a message and just say how inspired they are or how much they love the podcasts, or how much they love something that I've said somewhere and how much it's actually resonated with them. Some of them will say that, how they have been following the advice and it's really got them to a place where they would never thought they would be. And, of course, the people who actually come and join the Privacy Pros Academy, can tell you how life changing and transformational it has been for them. So it's been a journey of a transformation and it's been super inspiring, super rewarding.

Jamilla: 18:10

And what made you set it up in the first place?

Jamal: 18:12

it was at the end of December: 2020

Jamilla: 20:21

And the cohort we've seen so far, pretty diverse. We've got a few women that have come through. I think everyone's been a person of colour that's come through. And what kind of results have they seen and have you seen with them?

Jamal: 20:33

To join the Academy we don't really monitor what their background is or what their ethnicities are, but some of these things are self-evident. But yes, we've had people of colour, and we've had people of non-colour, and everybody is welcome, and we've had some amazing people. And you're right. Most of our clients, most of our mentees with the academy is a higher percentage of females. And it's actually been really positive. It's been really empowering. And we've had people like Zainab. You can listen to her story on one of the podcast episodes she has come in. She was in a point in her life where she was really stuck and frustrated, and she could see no way out. And she knew she had so much more to offer and so much more to give. She was just stuck in a supermarket, in a retailer. She joined the academy, and within six months, she has transformed her life, and now she's got the career of her dream. She's doubled her salary, and she is having amazing results, just like Fayaaz. They were in the same cohort together. And I think Fayaaz’s podcast went out previously to this one. It was last week. So you can hear his story about how he changed his career from a not for profit sector and how he's really pivoted his career and making the most of the opportunities of data privacy and everything they have to offer through the academy. And then we have so many people who have joined, and they're taking on the IAPP certifications for anyone who still hasn't acquired the IAPP certification. Listen guys, if you're serious about a career in data privacy, the way employers and hiring managers are looking at it is, it's almost a prerequisite for 80% of businesses, for 80% of the jobs out there that you have an IAPP certification on your CV. Usually you'd expect to start off with the Certified Information Privacy Professional over Europe. And it's not just about reading the book, learning how to pass an exam, and acquire that. When you actually speak to hiring managers, especially if you're trying to change career, they want to know that you actually know what you're talking about. They want to know that you're confident, and therefore the only way and what you really want and what you need is to attend training with a mentor. Whether that's through the Privacy Pros Academy or whether it's with somebody else, it doesn’t matter. The most important thing is that you find a mentor, somebody who is an expert on data privacy, somebody who is a thought leader, somebody who actually is passionate about what they do, because it's really upsetting the amount of people who come, actually are really upset. They’re like look, Jamal, I invested in the training with company XYZ. We had the training. It was so boring. Someone came and spoke at me for two days. They had no interest in the subject. Other people say, I went with a massive training company. Problem was that they're just trained trainers. They don't actually know what they're talking about. They couldn’t answer any of my questions. They don't practice privacy. Others would be like, we had the training by some lawyers. They don't know what it's actually like to operationalize these things. They're just talking about it from a legal point of view and theoretical point of view. So what I would encourage everyone listening to do is to really think wisely about the choices that they make. And if they're going to invest in themselves, what is the best value you're going to get for your investment? Go with someone who's going to give you the best return on the investment. And I'd love to position ourselves as the people who are best placed to do that. And the reason I say that is, number one, all of our trainers including myself, we're so passionate about data privacy, and we really want you to get it. We don't want you to just get it from here, but we want you to own it from your heart. We want you to be just as passionate about data privacy as we are. And I only work with individuals who come onto the academy who are just as passionate about data privacy as I am. And everyone that you will meet in the academy, they would have had at least a decade's worth of experience in the industry, so they would understand all of the ins and outs, the nitty gritty, and of course, the credibility and the authority that we have is second to none. You will not find another single trainer out there who has been approached by half as many of the media outlets as we have. You won't find another trainer out there who has been published in some of the high-profile places where we’ve had articles. And I know if it was me making a decision between if I'm going to spend X amount, I can either do that here and I get XYZ, or I can do it over here where I get XYZ plus all this extra stuff. And the other thing that we do at the Privacy Pros Academy that no one does and no one will do is we give you a supportive environment. So the challenge I find some people is they'll go to a two day training and it's very transactional. It's like they're on a conveyor belt, they go to a two day training. Someone delivers the training to them, two days later, they're out and they're left on their own. The difference with us is, when you join the Privacy Pros academy, even if you just come for the two day training, you actually get embedded as part of our wider community and our environment. And you are there now, and you are part of the community. We are there. We will support you. We have question and answer follow ups. We have a private Facebook group for people just like you. So even if you attended the training, let's say six months ago, but for whatever reason, you are unable to sit your exam or you have to revise and now you have questions. You have a strong community of people who are where you are, ahead of where you are and behind you. You have privacy professionals there from all over the world who will actually answer those questions for you. And if you still haven't got an answer, every Friday I come and I do a live Q and A session. So any questions that people have, it's answered. And we really hold your hands through the whole process, not just for those two days, but from before those two days, during those two days, and after. So you're never left on your own. And that, I believe is the difference that makes a difference.

Jamilla: 25:35

One thing I think I really rate about your approach to the Privacy Pros Academy is when someone approaches you and says, I'm really interested, I want to join you, you don't say, okay, great, let me take your money and let's get you started. You say, think about it, make sure that we are the right fit for you as well as you being the right fit for us. You really care about people's progress individually and care about what's right for them, not just, let's make some money from you attending.

Jamal: 26:01

Yeah, it's no secret privacy pays really well, and I'm grateful to God that we have a very successful consultancy. So the Privacy Pros Academy is not about making money. Privacy Pros Academy is more about delivering on our passions. And if we're going to deliver on our passions, we're going to be very selective with the people who we work with. So you have to be the right fit for the program. We don't want your money. We don't need your money. It's not about us. It's about you. We will still be in the same jobs we're in. We would still be in the same house as we're in. We'll still be driving the same car we'd be driving, regardless of whether someone comes to the academy or not. Right? So the academy is not about us. It's really about the individual. It's really about you. And what we want to make sure is that when you come and join the academy, that not only are we the right fit for you, but you're the right fit for us. You have the right mindset, you have the right set of values, and you actually are looking to develop a passion where you want a meaningful career, where you're going to go and make an impact on the world. And we only want to work with really driven, ambitious, and motivated people. So when they go out and people ask them, who did you train with? And they mentioned the Privacy Pros Academy, it reflects on us. And we want to get to a stage where eventually, where any employer, anywhere in the world, when they think about data privacy training or they think about recruitment, they want people who have gone through the academy. That's the vision. That's what we're trying to get to. And that's why we have to be very selective with who we let into the academy. And it's also important that we don't just take advantage of people's situations. So some people will be in a situation where they're actually very stuck, they're very frustrated, and they might just think that they can throw money and it might solve it. And I've come across too many people who have spent too much money on different courses, and six months later they end up in the same situation. Right. I want to make sure that anyone that joins the academy does not fit into that subject. I want to make sure that this is the right decision for them. And that's why we give you so many resources when you first approach us, to really help you to make your mind. And it's only after you're convinced that this is right for you, and we believe that you're the right fit for us. We say we welcome you on board.

Jamilla: 27:54

And it's something that I've seen, is the support that you give during the program. It's not just and we've said this before, it's not just teaching to pass an exam. You give people the mindset classes, and you give them opportunities to shine, I guess is the best word on webinars, putting them forward for different things, where they can showcase themselves and all the skills that they've acquired. And it really shows it's about them and about bringing that next cohort of data privacy professionals into the sector.

Jamal: 28:23

Yeah, absolutely. So now you're moving on to our secret formula. So, over the years, we've cracked, we've unlocked the formula to really make it as a Privacy Pro in data privacy. And we have a five step formula that anyone that joins the Privacy Pros Accelerator program, twelve week program, we will take them through all five steps. And this is where those five steps come in. So the first step or the first pillar to success is mindset. And in a previous life, one of the things I was, was a life coach, I'm a Master NLP practitioner. I think you read that as part of my introduction.

Jamilla: 28:55

Yes, and I think it comes through sometimes in team meetings where sometimes I go in and I'm like, oh. And then I feel like after I've had a team meeting, I feel, yes, I'm ready to go, ready to write some articles.

Jamal: 29:06

It's all about how we influence our choices and our options to really make sure that we have the most I meet a lot of people who come into the academy and they're really, actually broken, have a lot of self limiting decisions. Somebody has told them they're not good enough, or they believe they're not good enough. And there's all sorts of questions about their confidence. And so the first thing we do is we strip away all of those false beliefs. We strip away all of those self-limiting decisions and we really give them the mindset of an empowered privacy professional. And one of the questions that we have is we talk about focus, we talk about setting goals, we look at their values. Because a lot of people don't know that the human mind processes 2 million bits of information at any given time. And if your brain wants to process all 2 million bits, you would actually have a nervous breakdown. So what we do is we delete, distort and generalize the information using our internal filters. So you can have two people that would go and watch the same movie and when they come out of the movie, they would have two completely different experiences of the same movie. Your experience of the movie and your friends experience would be completely different. That's based on your internal filters. So people have internal filters and sometimes those internal filters were decided when we were children. Our subconscious mind must have decided those long time ago. And depending on what those internal filters are saying, it could actually be really harming your chances of making the most of the opportunities presented to you. So one of the things we do is we do a little deep dive into your mindset, we address those filters and then we decide to empower them. And we have all of these techniques in academy, I'm not going to go into that here. So people who join the program, but we really make the most of that. And I've had a lot of people who actually say this Mindset stuff is not what I signed up for. But the moment we started going through it, I felt like I had my money's worth already. And the mindset stuff is the stuff we do in the first two three sessions, right? So people are like, I don't need a program anymore, I got my money's worth. The rest of it is a bonus. It is the difference that makes a difference for them. What we'll do is start sharing some of the testimonials, some of the experiences that people are having, so people can see some of the results you can achieve from this mindset stuff.

Jamilla: 31:00

Do you think people are a bit reluctant with the mindset stuff to begin with?

Jamal: 31:04

Oh, absolutely not. Now remember, by the time people sign up to the program, they have been exposed to a lot of what we do and we would have had a very in their roadmap to success strategy call. And in that call is when we see where they are now and get to where they want to be. And then if they're the right fit, I'll explain the program to them and explain these five steps. And if these five steps are the bridge from where they are to where they want to get to, then I'll make them an offer to join the program. That's it. So I explained the steps and then if they believe that these are the right steps for them. They're like, yes. I mean, that's it. So step number one is the mindset. Step number two is all about the subject matter expertise. So people can learn to read a book, but you can't learn karate by reading a book. You have to go and spar with people, right? You can't learn to swim by reading manual. You've got to go in the pool, and you've got to take your hands off the edge.

Jamilla: 31:59

It's like, I remember the early days of computers. I'm old. You could go into W.H.Smith and you'd see, like, read a book on Excel and you'd be reading it, you'd look at it and think, is that really going to teach me? But going on to Excel now, there, that might teach me.

Jamal: 32:15

There you go. And I'm not only going on to Excel, but actually having someone who is a master at Excel. They can show you this is what you need to do, and guide you through the steps will actually get you to a level of competence a lot quicker.

Jamilla: 32:25

Yeah.

Jamal: 32:26

And so that's pretty much what we do. So the second step is all about subject matter expertise, and we have a series of master classes on all of the key topics in data privacy. There's twelve different master classes that we have, and the idea is that these master classes are designed to empower people. So by the time they finish each master class and they're ready to move on to the next topic, they are a subject matter expert. They have breadth and depth of understanding in that subject area, and they should be able to go on and have a conversation with any of their peers, and they should know what they're talking about, and they should be confident and own that they own the subject matter. So that's the second step. And then we have the third step, which is credibility certification. Right? So it's no good, me and you in the academy knowing, you know this stuff, the world needs to know it too. How do we do that? So we have to look for a global certification. We have to look for a certification that is recognized worldwide and one that actually employers one. That's when we put them through the official IAPP certification programs, so we put them through the two day intensive, and some people just join the academy just for that two day program, and that's absolutely fine as well. Not everyone needs to go on the accelerator program, and not everyone can make that investment. So everyone can start the journey wherever they are, and they can start the journey with the two day intensive IAPP certification. So that really gives them the credibility. It's the gold standard, the benchmark that you have the basic level of knowledge, you have a certain the gold standard. You meet the benchmark of what an employer would expect you to know when it comes to data privacy. And we see people, lawyers, engineers, technicians, operations, HR, so many people coming through just looking to achieve that certification, to really unlock their careers so they can start having thriving careers, whether it's data privacy or whether it's addition to that. And increasingly, we've had a lot more people with a legal background. So even though they have the legal certifications, we're seeing an increased number of lawyers who are actually coming on board to do the certification programs with us, which shows that this is actually what the industry needs out there. And anyone that tells you otherwise is not in touch with the market. And all you need to do is don't take my word for it, but go on, go on Google, look for data protection jobs, look at the top ten jobs. First thing that come up and out of ten, just notice how many of them say CIPEP or CIPM. And you can make that decision for yourself. So that's the third thing. And then we have two more. The next one is all about personal branding. It's all about personal branding. So this is where we take people from what they have right now and we have to help them rebrand to be the best version of themselves. And this is where our team of career coaches will really work through, really with you. And you're going to come up with a brand new CV, we're going to change and we're going to recreate your whole LinkedIn profile. And we don't leave anything to chance, anything that an employer is likely to see, anything that's going to really help and support you. You go to our LinkedIn Master class, you go through a recruitment process masterclasses, and by the end of that, you have a strong personal brand. And this is where we will do everything to leverage and pivot your actual credibility by putting you in front of a TV station, putting you in front of webinars, and really help you to deliver everything that you've discovered throughout the process so you're in a position where you can give back. And remember when we spoke about charity and giving back? The thing I love about this is now I've got a team of mentees and professionals who can actually hold webinars for not for profit organizations and can say, hey guys, we've got some great value to give you and guess what we can do at no charge to you at all. So it's amazing to be able to give back in that way. And these individuals who have come through the program, they actually love doing that as well. And I think you spoke to Fayaaz about this in the last episode.

Jamilla: 35:54

Yeah, and I've spoken to Zainab, and I think you really enjoyed it. I think after the first one they were bit nervous, which I was too, but I think afterwards I think they found it so beneficial and they just really liked the opportunity to give back. And I think it was just before Ramadan as well. The kind of time that we all kind of felt like we wanted to give back. And I think it was a really special webinar.

Jamal: 36:20

I remember we did a one earlier to that where we had Chloe. I think we had people from Kenya and South Africa and then we had people from Malaysia. So I remember we had a program with people from across the world and I remember Chloe from the Netherlands was on that one. Chloe actually used the branding from that webinar and she put it in front of her employers at an interview and they snapped her up. Boom. That was it. Amazing. That piece of personal branding made everything worth it for her and they snapped her up. She's now got the career of her dreams with a local multinational organization. She's loving every day of her job. So the personal branding really does help.

Jamilla: 36:53

And what's number five?

Jamal: 36:55

Practical experience, right? But this is all great. You have the theory, you know what you're talking about, you have the certifications, you have the personal branding but people want to know that you actually can come into the organization and if they're going to pay you large sums of money, you actually know what to do. Do you know what it takes to respond to a subject access request? Can you write privacy notices in a language that everyone can understand? Can you put together a record of processing activities? Do you know what it takes or what needs to go into a data protection impact assessment? And if you've never done any of these things, that's where everything can go wrong. That is the final pillar, the practical experience. So the thing we do on the accelerator program is we pick four of these key topics and we really work through the individuals in a safe environment where they are allowed to make mistakes because that's how you learn. And they will shadow my team and we will give them some simulated exercises so they get an opportunity to actually learn these things. Not by reading a book, coming to a class and learning about it, but by actually doing it. So sometimes they work with live clients, other times in the shadow and they get a chance to have a go at doing these things. They get a chance to acquire those skills. And we only move on from one practical experience to the next one, once both they and I are confident that they know how to do this. And when they say to me, Jamal, I'm either a ten out of ten or an eleven out of ten on how to do a data protection impact assessment, I said, okay, now you're ready for the next one. Even though the program is designed to be twelve weeks long, we have a really powerful policy on the program. At the end of that twelve weeks, if you haven't achieved the five pillars and you're not where you need to get it through, we'll work it with you. If you're having a really tough time with one of those elements, it's fine. That's what we're there to support you with. So we're not going to just kick you off the program at the end of the four weeks. We really work through it all with you because we are invested and committed to your success. And when you speak to the people on the program now, they'll tell you just how committed and invested in their success we are. In fact, you should reach out to these guys and bring them on while they're through the program, rather than at the end of the program, so we can learn about the experiences that people have when they're going through the program.

Jamilla: 38:57

That's a great idea. I'm going to note that one down. Now, we've heard a lot about the privacy pros academy. And I guess after the privacy pros academy came the privacy pros academy podcast. So why is my question, why did you set it up?

Jamal: 39:12

So the podcast is really our gift to the world. And the reason I say that is I get so many people reaching out to me from all different parts of the world because they've seen me speak, or they've come across an article, or they’ve seen one of our YouTube videos, which has been spoken on the news, and they’re really interested in data privacy. But for whatever reasons or whatever financial constraints they have, they can't actually bring themselves to invest. And in other parts of the world, there isn't really anyone teaching or training these things in the local currency. So for them to be able to access real quality data privacy training, data privacy education, they have to spend a lot of money. And when you convert their nairas, when you convert their rupees into pounds and dollars and euros, it really is beyond their reach. Like, they would have to work for like 5 to 10 years just to save up for a very basic course. So one of the things that they get to benefit from is the podcast doesn't cost anybody any money. And we can bring on global experts from all over the world. They want to come and they want to give back. And everyone that you've seen on the podcast, everyone that you've heard on the podcast, you see, we all have a very similar mindset. We're all invested in being the best version of ourselves. We're all very passionate about data privacy, and we're all inspired by helping others. And we really want to make this industry as great as it can be. Not just here in the UK and in Europe and in the US. But globally I've trained people in across 137 countries and counting now. And when we train people in some of these different jurisdictions, they're lucky because their employers often pay for the training. What they say is if we want to learn more about this stuff, we find it very difficult to find stuff. We can read about it, but it doesn't make any sense. We don't really get it. So the whole idea of the podcast is that these individuals can actually listen to Privacy Pros talking about some of these things and it really inspires them. So that's why it's a gift of the world. And the other thing is, there are people sometimes who are a little bit stuck and they're on their journey and they're looking for that little bit of inspiration or that bit of wisdom or that pick me up. And a lot of people say like, they tune in every week and this is they made it a routine to listen to the podcast every week and it really helps them to get through the week and give them some great ideas and some inspiration. And it's really inspired a lot of people. And what I want to start doing is actually if people give me permission because I want to share some of the great messages that I get on a daily basis about how much people are really loving the podcast. I think I started sharing that in some of our team groups and I can see how the team was actually saying, hang on a minute, he's actually making a difference. And I don't understand why I decided not to share these messages before and keep it all to myself. Yeah, it was very selfish of me, I apologize. I just was like, why am I keeping this thing that makes me feel so good I should share it with the team because it's a whole team effort. And so I've started sharing some of those with the team. But I think it'd be good to really start sharing with people. The great thing is when I see a lot of mentees doing now, and not even mentees, just people who are getting in touch with me, they started creating LinkedIn posts about each episode. And this is really fantastic because this is going to really help them with their personal branding. Imagine an employer or a recruiter that comes across your CV. The first thing they do quite often is look at your LinkedIn profile. When they've got a LinkedIn profile, if they can see that you're actually very passionate about data privacy, you're talking about privacy and you're tagged to some key players in the industry, then they're more likely to favour your application over someone who can't demonstrate those things. And one of the things that I find a lot of mentees say is I can't find my voice on LinkedIn. I'm happy to go and look at posts, I'm happy to like and comment on some posts, but I can't actually bring myself a post. So we make it easy for people. OK, send me your keys to be takeaways from this podcast or from each episode. And they do and I say, great, now put the same thing on a LinkedIn post. Yeah, what a brilliant idea. And it really helps them with their personal branding and it helps them to get the exposure. Some of the really smart ones, what they do is they'll tag the guest that's been on the podcast and the guests would often reply, but when the guest is tagging, it replies, guess what the linkedin algorithm does. It now increases their awareness to the expert reach, to all of the recruiter friends they have, to all of the hiring manager friends they have. And when an opportunity comes up, guess who is now on their radar? This is one of the things people pay to learn on the program, is how to really brand themselves on LinkedIn and this podcast, we give so much free value away. One of the problems sometimes of giving too much value away for free is when something is free, people don't actually value it, they don't listen to it. So I give lots of free advice to people, teach them the same things sometimes that I teach you. Some of my mentees and those people, because they haven't paid, they're like, oh yeah, okay. And they don't do anything. Whereas the people that are on the program, because they've invested a significant amount of money, they actually do those things and they get the results. You have to either pay with attention or you have to pay with pain. And most people unfortunately, choose to pay with pain rather than pay with attention. But when you pay with attention, you get the results that you work for. Like the art of being successful and making it in the privacy sector, in any sector. There isn't a lot to it when you break it down. It's those key five pillars. If you get those key five pillars right, we have a proven formula of showing you success after success after success after success. And we've actually brought people on this year who have gone through that journey. They've spoken about their journey. So if you look back through Zainab’s linkedin post, she put everyone on that journey with her. She was very open about the journey and was very open about all of the things that's happening. And you can see where she started, stuck in retail earning the minimum wage to now, where she has a meaningful, challenging and highly rewarding career as a privacy professional.

Jamilla: 44:48

And that's in what under,

Jamal: 44:50

Less than 24 weeks. Less than 24 weeks.

Jamilla: 44:53

Amazing. You can really like turn your life completely around, do a complete 180.

Jamal: 44:58

The key takeaway from this segment of the podcast is when you listen to the episodes in the podcast, come up with three key takeaways. Write a LinkedIn post about your three key takeaways, tag the guest, tag the previously pros Academy podcast, and really start working on your personal brand. It's as easy as that. And because you want to really give back. What you should do is put a link to the podcast on your comments area so that other people who are intrigued can also benefit from it as well. And guess what they're going to think about when they listen to the podcast. Oh, I'm so grateful to that person for bringing this to my attention. And that's it. That's how we start.

Jamilla: 45:35

I'm excited to see what the takeaways will be from this podcast. We've got another section. So recently on our podcast, we've been allowing the guests to ask Jamal a question. So I've kind of turned the tables a little bit and I've been sneaking around asking members of our team what questions that they would like to ask Jamal. What have they always wanted to know? So we've got some they're very interesting. Some of them surprised me quite a lot. I thought people would be nosier, but we've got a very kind of professional team, so that's good.

Jamal: 46:09

I don't know. I feel pretty open with the team anyway.

Jamilla: 46:11

Yeah, maybe I'm just nosy.

Jamal: 46:13

When I hired you, I said, you may, like, tell me one of your biggest qualities, and you said, stalking people. Do you remember?

Jamilla: 46:20

Did I? I don't remember anything pre lock down I'm so sorry. Okay, so let's start off Ananya, she is our queen of media. She would like to know, looking back on your career, what's the one thing you would have done differently?

Jamal: 46:35

That is a powerful question. Looking back on my career, I think one thing I would have done differently is I would have created a lot more content on LinkedIn. I would have started talking and describing my journey and my challenges a lot more. Because one thing I find is the more we share, the more people are magnetically drawn and attracted to us. Remember, I worked on some amazing projects all over the world and it would have been great to share different cities, different areas, different teams, different experiences with my network on LinkedIn. So I think that's one thing that I would have done differently.

Jamilla: 47:07

Great advice. I think LinkedIn some gets a bit abandoned by some people. Next up, we have Sharan, your right-hand man. He would like to know, why were you so sure that data privacy was going to be such a big thing and it would work for you?

Jamal: 47:22

t's going to be like the year: 2000

Jamilla: 49:30

You're starting conversations about data privacy on a Sunday morning or at like two in the morning. I’m thinking, why is he not asleep? The passion is always there, very hardworking. So the next question comes from one of our new interns, Simran, and she asks, if you could go back to being our age, what would you do more or less of, and what would you advise your teenage self? I'm guessing Simran is a teenager. I'm going to pretend that I'm a teenager for this one too.

Jamal: 49:58

This question is a can of worms. Anyone that knows me well will know that I was a very colourful and adventurous teenager.

Jamilla: 50:10

Is that the polite way of saying it, colourful?

Jamal: 50:12

That is the acceptable way of saying it. So what I would say is enjoy your teenagers. Have as much fun as you can. So I would say as a teenager, the one thing that would have really helped me if somebody had sat me down and asked me where I want to be in one 3,5,10 and 20 years time, it would have been a massive game changer for me. I woke up each day, I lived each day, and I went to sleep, and I was here for the next day. I didn't really have a direction or a plan. I knew I wanted to do something amazing and great. As a teenager, you feel invincible, right? You like you feel bulletproof, and you do some crazy things, and you don't think about tomorrow, and you don't think about risk, and you don't think anything silly is going to happen to you. That's all. Okay? You have to remember that you have a purpose in life. And if you think about what is my purpose in life? And you start thinking about those things and you start putting a plan or some kind of a vision or an idea about where you want to be. And I'm not saying map your life out as a teenager. Live your life, enjoy your life. Make sure that whatever you do is in line with your values and your principles. But what I would say is one thing I would advise as a teenager is have a plan of where you want to be in one year from now. Actually, regardless of if you're a teenager or not, whatever area of your life you're in, it doesn't matter. Think about where you want to be six months from now, one year from now, three years from now, five years from now, and ten years from now. If you have a really good idea of where you want to be ten years from now, break that down and work backwards and see what you need to do each year to make sure that you're on track for that thing to happen in ten years time. And one thing people underestimate is what they can achieve in one year, and they always overestimate what they can achieve in one week. And when they don't achieve what they can in that week, they get really demotivated. Or what they can achieve in that month, they get really demotivated. And because of that, they always underestimate what they can achieve in a year. So I always say start off with an annual goal and break it down and say, what do I need to achieve each quarter to be on track for annual goals? Take that approach to everything.

Jamilla: 52:12

That's really great advice. And at the moment, I'm volunteering with young people. I think I told you teenagers, I'm a little bit stuck sometimes about how to help them and what to say to them. I think that's really great advice, especially the six months and a year and even three years. I think ten years, they might look at me and think, well, I've no idea, but definitely breaking it down into what they need to do in the next six months, what they need to do in the next year. And a lot of them, I think, don't really know what they want to do. And I think when we can start putting things down on paper and putting ideas down, I think we get really successful teenagers.

Jamal: 52:48

This is a challenge, I find people go running circles because they don't know which direction they should be moving in, but as long as they know they're going in that direction, then at least they would have some idea and some reasoning behind some of the moves they're making. I make sure that anyone that comes and joins the Privacy Pros Academy has actually thought about what they want to do. And so that one of the reasons why we can't send them away if it's not clear that they actually know where they're going, because that's the last thing we want them to do, is to waste money, waste time, waste energy going around in circles and in fact, where they are.

Jamilla: 53:19

Yes, definitely. Okay, so next question from Aman. He wants to know, what do you do outside data privacy? Is there anything apart from stare at your cats, giving them dirty looks for getting fur on your suit?

Jamal: 53:35

I spoke in length about some of the charitable stuff that I do outside of data privacy. One of the things I really love to do is go out and try different types of food and different cuisine. It's something that my wife and I actually look forward to. So once a week we try to go out and try a different kind of food or try food that we really like. And this weekend we actually went to a Korean barbecue and vegan restaurant in Barbican, just in central London. Yeah, it was amazing. I had some amazing food there and I probably enjoyed my food a little bit too much Aman. I'm starting to think about some more healthier choices and I'm trying to introduce some lifestyle changes because I spend a lot of time on my desk all day and it's important to actually make sure that we get up and we exercise. And the other thing I'm really starting to enjoy doing is taking walks. So I'm trying to make it a point of going for a walk every day just to get that mental well-being and that balance away from the stresses of the desk.

Jamilla: 54:32

The way I found to do it is if I have to go to the post office and Sainsbury’s and do something else, whereas before I do it all in one day and I just go out and get everything done now I make them individual things each day. So I'll be like, oh, Monday I'm going to the post office. Tuesday, I feel a bit like an elderly person just trying to get out and about. But it works. It's an excuse to get out and go for a walk.

Jamal: 54:59

Yep. But do you need an excuse to get out and go for a walk? Or can you not just do that for yourself?

Jamilla: 55:04

Sometimes especially if it's raining?

Jamal: 55:06

Well, there's Uber eats for that.

Jamilla: 55:09

Other delivery services are available.

Jamal: 55:12

Yeah, that was not an endorsement of any time.

Jamilla: 55:16

Right, we're nearly there with the questions. Another one of our interns, Shashank asks can data protection or data privacy be embedded on blockchain network? Will it be safe, like in a decentralized network without access to third parties?

Jamal: 55:31

So, Shashank, whenever we're talking about any kind of blockchain network or anything, data privacy is to do with personal data for the purposes of what we're talking about here. So if there's personal data as part of that blockchain network, then one of the things that they would have to think about to be compliant with data privacy is the principle of data privacy by design and default. So when they're designing these blockchain networks, when they're designing their processes, they would have had to think about personal data and how that's going to be part of the process. And what somebody sensible should have done is a data protection impact assessment, identified the risks to personal data and then found ways of mitigating against those. So I hope that answers your question.

Jamilla: 56:13

Another question we've had before my question is from Samuel, and he says, what legal basis will governments rely on to process data subjects IMEI without their knowledge?

Jamal: 56:27

So this is a really interesting question. I think what Samuel is trying to get to is about how the government can actually conduct surveillance on its subject, on its citizens, without their knowledge. The challenge here is, Samuel is even with privacy legislation, there are certain exemptions for matters of national security and in the public interest. And the government doesn't actually have to rely on a legal basis for that. They can rely on an exemption to mean that they're allowed to do what they want to do when it comes to surveillance. So, unfortunately, I don't have an answer for you. It really depends on what it is that the government is trying to achieve. If they can rely on an exemption, then they’re outside of the scope of data privacy legislation for the respective jurisdiction, but where they are in scope and there is no exemption, then of course they have to rely on one of the local basis available to them, and most likely it would be for public interests. But it depends on which jurisdiction you're in and which part of the world you're in and what's available to them at that time.

Jamilla: 57:28

What's IMEI?

Jamal: 57:30

The IMEI number when you get a mobile phone or you have a SIM card. You have an IMEI number attached to that. So that's basically it's a unique identifier.

Jamilla: 57:39

Okay. So it's kind of like when you're talking about public interest. I remember we had this conversation after the Matt Hancock picture got published, and I said, why are they publishing it? Isn't it illegal because it's in his workplace? It's a bit weird. And you were like, no public interest. But there we go.

Jamal: 57:55

Correct. Under UK law, there is an exemption for anything that's for journalistic purposes, that's in the public interest. And one of the exemptions available to newspapers is if there is a story in the public interest, they can rely on that journalistic exemption. And that's what they did with Matt Hancock. And you can see that actually, it was in the public interest. He is a minister. He is stopping people from seeing their dying relatives. And at the same time, he's floundering the rules that he's imposing on other people. It's unacceptable to have one rule for ministers and another rule for the citizens. Everyone has to live by the same rules.

Jamilla: 58:30

Definitely. Okay. And last but not least, a question from me. I think I normally ask you them anyway. I'll probably just send you a why isn't Santa Claus adhering to GDPR with his naughty and nice list, but that is for a later webinar/ podcast. So my question is six months of podcast, six months of me talking. What's been your favourite moment?

Jamal: 58:51

I think my favourite moments are the ones that don't actually make the episode, the bloopers in between.

Jamilla: 58:57

They are? Yeah. And I think today's bloopers are especially good.

Jamal: 59:02

And I think maybe we're going to have to release an episode with just bloopers. We'll get people to work, see if they're interested in that. So my favourite moments from the episodes are definitely the bloopers where we have a nice laugh. But as you guys know, we don't always like to be serious. We like to have a lot of fun at the Privacy Pros academy. And the more fun we have, I believe, the more happier everyone is all having fun. And when we're laughing, in fact, I love them, we laugh so much.

Jamilla: 59:34

Yeah, there's definitely a lot of laughter today. I've thoroughly enjoyed this podcast that goes to show you time flies when you're having fun, which is exactly what we just said. So thank you, everyone, for listening. Thank you, Jamal, for letting me delve deeper into what drives you and getting to know a little bit more about you. So, Jamal, if anyone is listening to the podcast and they want to know the next steps, what should they do?

Jamal: 59:59

Listen to a couple of our podcasts and have a little think about whether you feel like you'd be a great fit for us. You can reach me on my LinkedIn and just drop me a message and then we can take it from there. If you'd love to have me as a mentor. I'd definitely love to have you as a mentee. And let's transform your lives. Let's get you that thriving career.

Jamilla: 01:00:16

Definitely. And what a great note to end on. Thank you. Time flies when you're having fun. As you just said, it's been a pleasure.

Jamal: 01:00:24

Thank you very much Jamilla. I love our podcast. Even though we didn't have a guest today, it was really good.

Jamilla: 01:00:29

It was very fun. See you on the next one.

Outro: 01:00:31

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