Intro: 00:00

My GDPR playbook from: 2018

Intro: 00:21

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

Intro: 00:26

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts, the podcast to launch progress and excel your career as a privacy pro.

Intro: 00:37

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy. Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals, and hear real stories and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to.

Intro: 00:51

We're an official IAPP training partner.

Intro: 00:56

We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

Intro: 01:00

So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you're an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Jamal: 01:17

Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening wherever you are joining us from the world today and whatever time of day it is, you're listening in. My name is Jamal and I'm the host of the Privacy Pros podcast. And if you're new here, make sure you check out our other episodes and have a deep dive into all of the amazing guests that we've had on the show. And today we've got another amazing guest on the show. Today I've got actually, we're fortunate enough to have Jacob. Jacob Hoedt Larsen is a partner at Wired Relations, a privacy management software provider. He's also the host of Privacy League, a podcast where he provides the latest knowledge on GDPR and information security, and he interviews experts from the industry. Jacob has worked both as a journalist and a jurist in politics, real estate, finance, and education. And now he's focused on legal issues, privacy, and compliance. On a more personal note, he is a soft-hearted father, a mental skills coach to young aspiring footballers, and boxers, too. Wow. That is such a vibrant array of skills and talents there, Jacob.

Jacob: 02:22

I'm blushing now that you read it back to me. I've done all sorts of things. I've been fortunate enough to have a lot of opportunities in my life being thrown at me and then just taking them.

Jamal: 02:36

I can see how all of this is great stuff you're putting out on LinkedIn, where it's all coming from, all the different influences and that wider holistic view that you have. This is really refreshing and amazing. You're a mental skills coach. What is your favourite mental practice?

Jacob: 02:49

Visualising my own death.

Jamal: 02:53

Sorry, say that again?

Jacob: 02:55

Visualising my own death. That's something I've yeah, I've been practicing that for some time and I've actually guided hundreds of people through it as well. You know when athletes practice for something big, they'll visualize for motivation, sort of when they are receiving the medal, they'll be visualising that. And this is basically taking that to some sort of extreme because isn't sort of the biggest goal in life isn't that when you die, you die happy and satisfied that you did all the right stuff in your life. When you've done it, you know what you should do in life, what's important in life. Every month I do that and every once in a while I guide somebody else through that experience.

Jamal: 03:46

Okay, that's really interesting because when you first said you visualise dying, I was like you're creating a car crash or some kind of gruesome, horrible death that you re-enact. But it's not that. What you're saying is you want to know that as you are on your last moments, and you look back or when they write your obituary. It's colourful, it's vibrant. It's a life that was lived and not just a person who existed.

Jacob: 04:11

Absolutely. So it's visualising your own death as you really want it to be, just like getting the gold medal for life.

Jamal: 04:21

Wow, that's very powerful. You've opened up my perspective there. Perhaps you can give me some tips on that. I love what you're talking about, about the actual visualisation, because that's one of the things that I encourage people to do who join our accelerator program is we take a holistic approach and we have five essential steps. And the first step is all about mindset and having that growth mindset, the abundance mindset, and really thinking about your identity as a person and who you want to show up with to be your next best self. And one of the things we speak about is visualising all of those things. And for the people who join some of our other programs, at the end of each session, we have like a bonus session where we talk about preparing for the exam. And I talk about exactly what you said, how Olympic gymnasts and medallists and swimmers prepare for their big event is they visualize every step. They'll visualize themselves winning. Sometimes they'll even wear the same outfit, what they're visualizing. So I encourage people to really take it as far as they can so they know by the time they've come out of the exam, they know what they're going to say in their head. They know how great they're going to feel. They know who the first person they're going to speak to and say they've passed this and that really optimises their chances of success. And if you're listening and you're about to take an exam or you've got something big coming up, this visualization, it really works well because the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between something you imagine and something which is actually real and by imagining those things, you're building up that muscle memory. You're connecting those neurons. And if you can do that enough times, you'll create such a strong neurological pattern there that your brain will do everything to give you what it has already envisioned because it knows this is strong, it stays, it’s going to happen. And all the other distractions, all the other objections, your subconscious mind is so powerful to find a way to filter all of it out so you get that success, God willing.

Jacob: 06:07

It's such a powerful tool. It really is. I couldn't put it any better than you did there, Jamal.

Jamal: 06:12

Thank you, Jacob. Jacob, you are a partner at Wired Relations. What is Wired Relations?

Jacob: 06:18

We are making a piece of software for privacy and information security compliance. So basically putting an ability to get an overview of your systems, your vendors and your processing activities and everything you do. So that's basically what we do.

Jamal: 06:38

Great. So it's essentially almost like a single source of truth. I can come there and I can have a look at all of my different processing activities. That tells me all of the different pieces of data, where it's going, where it's coming from. And then I've got a list of all of my vendors as well. So if I have any questions, if I'm answering any subject access request, if I'm dealing with a data breach, if I'm dealing with anything that requires me to have all of that information quickly and easily, it's essentially all there.

Jacob: 07:05

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what we're seeing right now in privacy compliance is that it becomes more collaborative. So you need someplace to be able to collaborate. So if I'm describing a processing activity, you should be able to see what I'm doing. And so it's overview and collaboration on the privacy compliance side, basically.

Jamal: 07:31

Awesome. That makes sense. And what is the biggest pain that it helps privacy pros overcome and solve?

Jacob: 07:38

Absolutely getting an overview and collaborating with others on privacy, that's the biggest pains. We believe that privacy should come out of its silo. I think we've seen a lot of siloed privacy and we think it should come out. We think people in the business should be able to work with this. So processing activities should sometimes be owned not by the privacy department, but by those who actually do the processing activities. And that's why we built the solution at first is for that to be able to happen because it requires that as a privacy professional, you should be able to get an overview of everything and moreover, that those who own a vendor or who owns a processing activity should be able to work in it. So that's what we think about when we create new stuff, is that it should be easy for those who doesn't work with privacy full time and it should give an overview for those who do.

Jamal: 08:50

Yeah, that's one of my biggest frustrations when I'm working with clients and they've got some well known tools in there, and the challenge is you send the forms out, but people don't actually know how to answer the questions. And so they will either not answer it and sit on it for ages and ages and ages, or they will actually give you information that is not really appropriate, so it ends up wasting so much time and effort. And I hear what you're saying is we need to get out of this siloed approach. We need to make sure that we're embedded. And your Wired Relations tool, actually now the name makes sense as you're wiring all of those relations together, so we don't have that mismatch where unless they're privacy educated, they'll be able to complete the forms, it should be anyone in the business, and we can all now collaboratively work together. Does that sound about right?

Jacob: 09:36

Yeah. And there's a system side to it, but there's also, I think, a cultural side to it. I think we see that as a community, as an industry, as privacy, we haven't completely been able to get a buy in from the rest of the organization. I think we need this moment of time where everybody just goes. I can see now why privacy is important also to me. So there's a systems side to it, but I also think there's a big cultural issue around that we should really be able to understand how privacy could become important to the marketing officer and those in HR and so on and so forth. So I'm completely aligned with your frustration when you talk to clients that there's a problem just getting everybody on board.

Jamal: 10:30

Now I'm curious, was this idea in any way driven by your experience earlier down the line when GDPR came in and you kind of had to take that compliance journey on?

Jacob: 10:43

id that my GDPR playbook from: 2018

Jamal: 12:08

Well, you're a brave man for admitting those, but thank you for being honest. And, you know, Jacob, it's not your fault. And it's not just you're not alone in that. You'd be surprised the number of times we've gone to clients, and essentially they took this similar approach at the beginning or they hired some very mediocre or poor consultants to come in, and they would take out a spreadsheet. And they listed all 99 articles, and they said, here's what the article says, here's what the gap is. Here's what you need to do. Here's a template that does it. Tick the box, away you go, and you're done.

Jacob: 12:36

Absolutely.

Jamal: 12:37

Like you said, you foresaw that maybe later down the line they have to do something. And that's essentially a lot of the work we are doing is going and having a look at that tick box compliance exercise people did and saying, okay, that's not exactly how it works. Because businesses, forward thinking businesses, they don't see privacy as a tick box exercise. They see privacy as a way to build trust, to inspire confidence, and to really show them how much they care about people having control over their personal data, over the competition. And the more businesses actually understand we're living in the age of privacy now, the better they tend to do. And it's not just me saying that. If you look at some of the biggest companies in the world, the companies that spend probably more than 80% of companies turnover on just researching what people are interested in companies like Apple and Amazon, you can see when it comes to talking about their product, when it comes to getting by it, they're not even telling you about anything other than how much they value your privacy. Whether they do or not. In practice, that's a completely different conversation. But they understand people value privacy now. We're living in an age where everyone is very concerned about their privacy, and by demonstrating, you understand the customer and you meet them with their concerns, puts you way ahead of the rest of your competition.

Jacob: 13:53

And I think we're at a point in time where mindset is actually super important, because I'm well aware that a lot of companies are not doing what privacy purists think they should do. But I think there is a big difference between companies that are aware this is important and businesses that are not aware of this. I think just getting in the box of being aware is important enough because then you can work on it, you can work at it. And I think we should applaud that as well, because no one will get there from day one. But just being aware that we are building trust. We're not just trying to exploit data, we are trying to build trust and we care about it. I think that's super important.

Jamal: 14:39

It absolutely is Jacob. And I think privacy purists are probably a very bad advocate for businesses, because what businesses want and the approach that we take that really gets us those award winning results is you have to take a pragmatic approach. You have to meet the business where they are and work with them to meet the business objectives, but also bring in their privacy program and show how the privacy program can actually support those various different objectives whilst building up that trust, whilst making sure we're keeping people's data secure so no one can come and take and interfere with it. And so people who are not meant to be seeing it, are not seeing it too. And the moment you actually speak to the business in a language they understand and show them we're in this together and we understand, we're aligned on the business mission, we're aligned on the objectives. Your work becomes so much easier, the buy in becomes so much easier, and everything just happens smoothly. And you can make changes over a very short period of time that have a massive impact. Now, does that mean that they tick every single box of the 99 articles of the GDPR and someone can rubber stamp it? Probably not.

Jamal: 15:41

But even the regulators, even the law doesn't require that. It says take reasonable precautions, take reasonable measures based on what the risk is and do something that is appropriate to the risk. And no regulator that I've worked with, no regulator that I've interviewed on this podcast, has ever come in with the mindset that we expect absolute compliance. And if you can't tick every single box, then there's problems. They want to see, you're thinking about where you are. You've understood what the risks are and you've taken based on the resources you have, based on the constraints, based on the other things going on in the environment and the economy, in the industry, that you're doing the best you can to get towards where you need to be. Obviously, if there's any major risks, they'd expect you to sort those out, as would your customers. Why would you ask people to trust you with their information if you know you can't protect it? So put that to one side. But this is it, that's all we need to do. And even when things go wrong, a lot of the time we get asked to come in to say, hey, can we appeal this? Can we defend this? And what we look to see is, can the business justify that they have a strong defensible position? And a strong defensible position essentially means can we demonstrate that they've done what's reasonable? And if we can demonstrate that, then it's great. It often gets rid of some of those things that could otherwise turn into enforcement action. But it's not just about finding a way to say yes, we can do this, we can do that. No, we actually have to see has the business been reasonable here? And is the regulator or is the complaint actually unfair? And how can we put in steps to overcome some of the challenges that have been identified? So we can say, look, we understand there was a concern, this is the reasonable efforts that the business actually put in and actually we're now going and doing this. So we've already done this and it changes the whole conversation. What's your views on that, Jacob?

Jacob: 17:22

I totally agree with everything you said there, Jamal. I think that if a company has great risks, the real issue isn't going to be the DPA or the courts or the fine that you might be getting. The real issue is that you're putting your relationship with your stakeholders and every stakeholder, it's not just your customers, but it's your employees. It's interest organized. It's a lot of stakeholders that you put your trust in risk there, and that's more important than the regulatory side is. So I completely agree with what you said. If we didn't have the GDPR, a lot of the things would have to be done anyway.

Jamal: 18:03

Absolutely. Jacob, as I was introducing you, one of the things I mentioned was you're a strategic storyteller. Yeah, I'm fascinated, tell me more about that.

Jacob: 18:11

I'll tell you a story then.

Jamal: 18:14

Good.

Jacob: 18:16

u tried to do it. And then in: 1954

Jamal: 19:46

Wow, that is so powerful. I often talk about this story. We're talking about Roger Bannister, and I also told him about the other guy, what's his name? Chuck Yaeger. So Chuck Jaeger, he broke the sound barrier flying the X one. And this was, again, something that people said is impossible, and they accepted it. And the moment they accept something, your brain or the universe also says, yeah, it's true. And it was Henry Ford, I believe, that said, whether you think you can or whether think you can't, you're both right. It all depends. It all comes down to mindset. And what you're saying is, when we reinforce self limiting decisions, when we reinforce those things that hold us back and we tell ourselves they can't be done, your brain says, yeah, it can't be done. And as a strategic storyteller, what you try to do is blast through those limiting decisions by creating ideas and perceptions in people's mind that now open up their thinking to say, hey, what is this is possible. Instead of saying, I can't do that and stopping thinking, you now ask, how can I go and make this happen? Or Wouldn't it be great if I was able to achieve this? And that gets them thinking and performing on a whole another level.

Jacob: 20:56

What's the most limiting story that we tell ourselves in privacy? It's not a trick question. It's not that I have sit here with an answer. I'm curious. What do you think is the most limiting story that we tell ourselves?

Jamal: 21:09

I'm not really sure. What is the most limiting thing we tell ourselves in privacy? I'm curious, tell me.

Jacob: 21:16

I can come up with an example. This might be a small one, but in privacy we tell this story about dataset and a data subject. Basically, it's someone that is a subject that you can identify and tell something about through data points. So basically we turn people into data points. That's the story we're telling. I think that's a terrible story. So one of the things I want to do with my storytelling is putting people back into data protection because you don't want to protect, there's no motivation in protecting data points, right? But there's motivation in protecting people. I suggest we go talk to real people, those that we affect with how we store and process data. Because then we'll understand deeply their sort of fears and beliefs and goals and what would actually happen to their lives if we breach their data or if we process it in a malicious way that's changing the story from data subject to being human. That's just one example of what I try to do.

Jamal: 22:31

Jacob you can see I've been grinning this whole podcast ear to ear. It’s almost got to a point where I’ve been grinning so much that it’s hurting my face. I can't believe we haven't come across each other before because we're both on the same wavelength. We're pretty much saying it's the same things in our own ways. Because what you've said there is exactly the first thing I do when I do any corporate trainings is I make them understand this isn't about compliance. This isn't about some records that come through. This isn't about responding to data subjects. This is about real people, people like me, people like you, people like your family. And the first thing I get them to do is imagine they were subject to a data breach. What happened? How does that affect them? How does that make them feel? How does that make them think about the company that's disrupted that data? And then I say, well, this is exactly what's happening over here. This is how we need to think about things. Every time you touch a file, every time you go on a record, every time you get one of these requests. There's a person behind that. There's a person we're dealing with, and this is what we always need to keep at the forefront. And that perspective shift changes everything.

Jacob: 23:32

It does.

Jamal: 23:33

It's a little bit like I can't remember what the experiment was, but there was an experiment that they did in psychologists where they stripped people's names and they gave them numbers and they got people to do all sorts of horrible things to them under test conditions by stripping away the identity of the person being a human, and they dehumanize them. And you're absolutely right. Like, this is one of the biggest problems we have in privacy is the story that this is all just data points. We're just processing things. You don't process people. And if you think you do process people, then I think privacy is probably not going to be the game for you to play at the world class level. If you want to go about being mediocre and average, that's absolutely fine. There's plenty of companies that will settle for that, for the forward thinking companies, for those really juicy projects and roles. You have to be world class. And when you're world class, you recognize the importance of what you do. You recognize that every time you're touching data, every time you're giving instructions on data, it's having an impact on hundreds, thousands, sometimes even millions, depending on the company you're working with. So you're having to take custody of so many people's trust, and those people have trusted that company with the information. And that's what you have to remember. And it's not that they're worried about people seeing their information. They're happy for you to see the information otherwise they wouldn't be sharing that information to begin with. What they're really concerned about is not losing control over what happens with that information. And that's what we need to make sure that we're working towards, and that's the comfort and the assurance we need to give people, hey, we recognize you are just a person like me and the trust that you've given us, we're going to make sure that we make sure you stay in control of what happens with that information. And we're not going to do anything kind of creepy with it. If something's cool, then you like it and we'll tell you more about it. But if it's creepy, then okay, it's not going to happen. Jacob I have to ask myself, all of this mindset stuff that you've been telling me is fascinating. I've not come across someone on the podcast who is so aligned with the similar messaging. Where does this all come from?

Jacob: 25:35

I've been interested in this for 15 years, almost doing stuff on myself, but also for a couple of years, three years, I worked with it sort of professionally, full time. So I've been working with athletes and SWAT team members and leaders. And I think what got me interested was it comes back to all of this being human. And as we've talked about dehumanizing thing, I think that being human is basically living your life consciously making conscious decisions and being resilient to whatever life throws at you. And I just saw so many people at some point, myself included, who just had their lives sort of lived to them, just responding to things and basically being quite miserable really and not making those conscious decisions. This is what I want to do. And so I got interested. I've tried all sorts of things and started out meditating and I've trained coaches, I've done visualization all sorts of things. And what I've basically sort of come back to is that it's very much about taking control of what you can control and being able to let go of the things you cannot control. I train boxers in my spare time, bringing young kids from just starting with boxing gloves on to go into a fight. There's a lot of opportunities to sort of learn what can I control, what can I control? So that's basically what I do nowadays when people ask me to. It's not something that I advertise a lot, but every once in a while somebody finds me and so I do, I call it flow coaching. So that's basically what I tried to put out on the mental skill side.

Jamal: 27:29

Wow, that is fascinating. And you might even find that I reach out with for mental skills coaching soon and hopefully you'll accept me. Even though I know it's not something that you're focused on right now.

Jacob: 27:41

It's always inspiring to talk to people.

Jamal: 27:45

Yeah, so on that I know you just dropped a huge gem. And anyone who's been paying attention and listening intently, if they take and apply what you've just said, focus on the things that you can control and don't get distracted or disturbed by the things that you can't. If we just apply that, I know how powerful that can be. It's one of the first things one of my earlier mentors taught me. I can't even overemphasize or oversell how powerful just that is. Something happens, can you control it? Great. Do whatever you need to do. If it's outside of your control, you got to forget about it and you got to move on. That is super powerful. What is one other great actionable tip you can give the listeners listening now that they can go and apply in their life straight away to see a huge shift in just their mindset and their performance. Because a lot of times when we talk about mindset, it's not something that people are familiar with, especially coming from a privacy background. They speak to a lot of lawyers who've always been like they've been in school, worked hard, gone to do their A levels or O levels or whatever the equivalent is, then they go to law school, then they go and join a training program and they've just always been constantly at it. And then they find themselves in a high, high pressure role and they tend to have burnout and be stuck essentially in the rat race. And sometimes what they don't understand or they don't have the awareness of is this whole mindset thing that these whole mindset skills and the way we use our brain, we can actually have a lot of influence and control over that. And the moment we understand we're in charge of our mind and therefore our results, we can change and design our life the way we want it to. Which brings us onto that icebreaker question you told us about is, you visualize what that's going to look like for you. What's one great actionable tip or piece of coaching you can give us right now?

Jacob: 29:28

What I see a lot of privacy people struggle with is people skills, building rapport. I often hear that whether or not you can work with people, that's a matter of chemistry. It's a magical thing that happens. And that's, again, coming back to stories, that's the wrong story to tell ourselves. Because the thing is, I've been certifying coaches for a couple of years, and one of the things that we always tell them is you are responsible as a coach for building rapport, for building a good working relationship with this person. And every time there's somebody saying, I can't be responsible for that because it happens. It's either happening or it's not. But the thing is, rapport building is a learnable skill. If you try tomorrow when you meet somebody, try to pay attention to how he or she speaks, what words is he or she using? What kind of body language are they using? Are they speaking slow or fast? And then just try that's actionable, try to mirror that and see how magic happens. Yeah, because we really like ourselves. So if we see ourselves in the person we're talking to, we just instantly fall in love. And that's really something that I try to come across with, that relationships aren't by chance. It's actually something you can work on. Also, when you take your privacy cap and go down to those terrible guys down in marketing to get them to do something, you can actually.

Jamal: 31:26

I love my marketing guys. They're actually some of the most fun people to work with. They have all these great ideas, so I get on well with them. I wouldn't say the same guys at all. Marketing guys if you're listening, don't worry. Jamal's got your back.

Jacob: 31:40

Me too. I like marketing guys as well. But you can build rapport and you can do it, and it's not by chance. Try to mirror the people you're talking to and see how that actually changes your relationships and your life.

Jamal: 31:54

Wow, that is super powerful. And I remember when I was doing my NLP Neurolinguistic program coaching, the first thing my coach taught me was in the presence of rapport. When you have rapport, anything is possible. And I really took that and I applied it and it's helped me get some phenomenal results. And what I find is a lot of people use the word rapport, but they're not really sure what it means. So then when they don't know what it means, they're like, oh, you see, there's something that happens or it doesn't. That's very much a fixed mindset. It either is or it isn't. Whereas when you take the growth mindset let me learn about rapport. What is rapport? How do I build that rapport? And when you do that, you just apply what you've just said, Jacob. There you've given like $1,000 lesson away for free is, all it is rapport is a feeling of familiarity. That's all it is. And that's all we're trying to create. And a lot of people say, I don't know how to build rapport, but they do it all the time. I've heard them. And what I normally do is I'll say, okay, here you're ordering lunch for everyone. And I'll dial a number of, like, a restaurant that I know where they have a very heavy accent in another foreign language, and I'll say, here, this is order it. And you see that they change the way they speak to match the person on the phone. And I will say to them, that's not how you speak. Why did you just change the way you speak? Oh, just so they can understand me better. So you're already an expert in building rapport. Like, what do you mean? Well, you just changed the way you speak to match the other person so that you have better communication, the better the chance that the order comes through, right? That's what you were focused on. You didn't realize you're actually building rapport with them. And that's all we're doing. And as you said, Jacob, all we need to do is match and mirror. We can match and mirror their body language. We can match and mirror their gestures. We can match and mirror the quality of their voice, how fast or slow they speak, how loudly or softly they speak. And what you find people who are very good at dealing with conflicts, it's not because they have some kind of magic. It's because they understand that they can still be firm and build rapport at the same time without having to use expletives. And that's essentially what great rapport building is all about, saying, what energy, what positioning, what kind of things do I need to do to match this person? Because in the rapport, what we want to do is match them. And then once we've matched them, we can now start leading them towards the direction we want to take them to. And in the presence of rapport, it's so much more easier to influence and persuade in an ethical way to get the kind of results that we want to get. Jacob, this has been such a fascinating podcast. I can't believe how much value you've been giving us. And I'm such a big fan of all of these mindset coaching. It’s the reason why we have it as a foundation of everything we do in the program, for the exchange program because I believe that unless we get the mindset right, it doesn't matter what technical privacy skills I give you, it's not going to make any difference, right? You can just do that anyway. You can go and take an online course or train with anyone else. But we want to create world class privacy professionals and world class privacy professionals understand people. And we have to understand that. We have to meet people where they are. We have to meet people at their level of understanding. We have to meet people with their current belief system and tell them those strategic stories that you've been telling us about to help us move the needle and get towards the objective that we want to get to. With that in mind, I'm curious what is the privacy scene in Denmark like?

Jacob: 35:13

wn away my GDPR playbook from: 2018

Jamal: 36:23

en to Denmark since, I think,: 2016

Jacob: 37:41

Yeah.

Jamal: 37:42

What's that all about?

Jacob: 37:45

That's true. I think you've been lucky in Denmark with the company. Norway, they have open tax book. That's not the case here, but a lot of information that you would normally keep private. But that's public domain. That's true. In Norway, yeah.

Jamal: 38:03

Super interesting. Jacob, it's been absolutely amazing spending. I don't even know. I think we are whole hours almost flown by. It's probably one of the longest podcast episodes we're going to have, but it's packed with value. We spoke about your role as a mindset coach. We really got to understand why strategic storytelling is important and how it can help us overcome limiting beliefs. We got to know more about your role at Wired Relations and how that can help larger companies, 250 plus employees as well as the public sector municipalities, to really bring a whole single source of truth so they can collaborate with the rest of the business and get rid of some of those frustration that they might be experiencing now and then. You drop so many gems along the way. I have one final question for you. Earlier I mentioned you have this awesome podcast, the Privacy League. Who's been your favourite guest and why?

Jacob: 38:58

d Yasper had a vision back in: 2010

Jamal: 41:30

Wow. Jacob, that is super inspiring. I don't know if you can see on the camera, but as you're telling me that story, I started getting goosebumps and dimples. So inspired by that, this person who had this dream and who was able to foretell the kind of future, not only did he manage to achieve something almost impossible, that other people have laughed him out the door, but he managed to unite the whole nation behind these, and they even won a medal. That's absolutely amazing. Wow. That's so super inspiring. And the other thing you mentioned there, again, was, one of the things I teach my mentees is the quality of your life, the quality of your performance is going to be measured based on the quality of the questions you're asking yourself. And for me to hear you're asking yourself that question and letting that just absorb in your mind, I was like, wow, this is absolutely amazing. You need to move to London and we need to jam together more Jacob.

Jacob: 42:24

We'll do that.

Jamal: 42:25

That awesome. So, Jacob, if Jamilla was here, usually she lets the guests ask me any question, no holds barred. So if you wanted to ask me a question, I also extend that courtesy to you. So over to you.

Jacob: 42:38

I have this question that I often ask experts, and that is, what is the last big change in your outlook that you've seen? What is the last thing that you thought was true and then you changed your mind and now you're thinking something else?

Jamal: 43:01

Technically or just generally in life?

Jacob: 43:03

Just generally or technically. So what is the thing where you've changed your mind on something big?

Jamal: 43:11

I would actually share something quite personal, and this resonates with something I said when I was introducing you about being a soft hearted father. Anyone in my friends, my families, they know that when it comes to children, they would think if you were to ask them six months ago, they would say absolutely no way completely useless. This guy, he can't even make toast without burning it right. And for some reason, whenever I've interacted with babies in the past, they've always been crying. I have one niece who loves me and she's never cried. But other than that, babies and I didn't seem to get along. And then I had Amy. Amy came along. And actually, in my family, in my friend circle, in just all the people that we associate with, probably one of the more hands on, practical fathers. And I can do things that even surprise myself. And I've taken this attitude that if someone else can do it, I can do it, too. And it might take me a little bit of time, but I just have to learn and I have to break it down into different parts. So me thinking I won't be able to do anything is now. I welcome and I love and I relish every opportunity I get to do something for my daughter. And I don't know if that’s because I'm a girl dad, I'm going to ask you, are you a girl dad? I'm probably going to think that you are.

Jacob: 44:34

I have a son and a daughter.

Jamal: 44:37

How old are they?

Jacob: 44:39

They're nine and six.

Jamal: 44:42

God bless.

Jacob: 44:42

Yeah.

Jamal: 44:43

So, again, I can come to you for a lot of coaching, but that’s become my kind of mindshare shift. Hey, I can do this stuff, too. It's not as difficult. It's a bit messy, but if you break things down and you practice it enough times, anyone become an expert in anything?

Jacob: 44:58

Thanks for sharing that, Jamal. That was nice.

Jamal: 45:04

All right. Awesome. And if you're listening and you've enjoyed this episode, you can reach out to Jacob. He's available on LinkedIn. He's also got the Privacy league podcast. And if you're interested in learning more about the solution, Wired Relations, we'll put a link into the podcast episode. But if you reach out to Jacob on LinkedIn, he's always super helpful. We'll link his profile in the show notes as well. Jacob, thank you so much for all of those gems that you dropped. I think we got more than we bargained for, and this is only a benefit to the listener. And if you're thinking of taking your career to the next level through privacy certifications or through training, and you found this mindset interesting, then get in touch with me on LinkedIn, and we're going to have a conversation about how you too can have a world class, thriving career. Until next time, folks. Peace be with you.

Outro: 45:53

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, like and share so you're notified when a new episode is released.

Outro: 46:01

Remember to join the Privacy Pros Academy Facebook group, where we answer your questions.

Outro: 46:06

Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're leaving with some great things that will add value on your journey as a world class privacy pro.

Outro: 46:13

Please leave us a full or five star review.

Outro: 46:16

And if you'd like to appear on a future episode of our podcast, or have a suggestion for a topic you'd like to hear more about, please send an email to team@kazient.co.uk

Outro: 46:28

Until next time, peace be with you.