Katalina: 00:00

So something I think that people should know is absolutely not true is that most businesses don't need a privacy function, and that's why you cannot really get a job as a privacy professional. That is not true. Most businesses do need a privacy function, whether they know it or not. So I started thinking, is there any other way that I can specialize without going through the traditional legal path? I focused on my work. I focused on my legal studies. And then suddenly I was like, you know, I just I don't think this is the right approach. I need to prioritize my passion. I need to do what I love. And that's when I found you, Jamal, and I told you, I think I'm making a mistake.

Intro: 00:46

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

Intro: 00:51

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts, the podcast to launch progress and excel your career as a privacy pro.

Intro: 01:02

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy. Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals and hear real stories and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to.

Intro: 01:17

We're an official IAPP training partner.

Intro: 01:21

We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

Intro: 01:26

So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you're an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Jamal: 01:42

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Privacy Pros podcast. I'm your host, Jamal Ahmed, founder and lead trainer at the Privacy Pros Academy, where we help driven professionals to unlock your potential and build thriving privacy careers so you can land those high paying roles to get the life that you have always deserved. We've trained hundreds of mentees across the world to gain clarity, competence, and confidence and the credibility and provided them with the community you need to excel. And I'm super excited because we have one of our mentees from the Privacy Pros Academy today, and she has gone on an amazing and inspirational journey filled with highs and lows. And we've got to the end now where it's a whole new chapter, and she's super excited. And the reason she's coming on today is to share her story so she can inspire more people to believe in themselves and achieve great results when you put your mind to it. So today I'm going to be speaking to Katalina. Katalina is a recent graduate from the Privacy Pros Academy. She successfully attained her CIPPE recently as well. She has a very colourful background. She previously worked as a human rights lawyer at a high street firm, and she's now working in house at a fintech company. While she was still a law student, she worked in customer services and sales. She also worked and studied full time throughout her LLB, her LPC, and her LLM. So you can see the drive and passion and effort this girl puts in. She is now a privacy professional aspiring to provide a world class service to every one of her clients, just like she has been taught at the Privacy Pros Academy. Welcome, Katalina.

Katalina: 03:19

Hi, Jamal. Thank you for having me.

Jamal: 03:22

My absolute pleasure. Thank you for making the time to be here today. So first question for you is, if you could get the credit for inventing any invention in history, what would you choose?

Katalina: 03:34

That is a very good question. I think I would go with something obvious. I would have loved to invent smartphones, for example. At the moment, the good thing is we have a lot of opportunity to make our own inventions and contributions to the privacy and tech world, so let's work on that.

Jamal: 03:56

All right. So I guess you would want the smartphone, so you could have designed it with privacy in mind, right?

Katalina: 04:02

Oh, definitely, yes.

Jamal: 04:04

All right. Awesome. Great. So today we're going to find out all about your journey from where you were to where you are now. And just for the record, guys, Katalina has just secured multiple offers, doubling her current salary and really excited about her future and what the values can she bring to the table. But it wasn't always like that for her. It wasn't always like that for her. She was frustrated, she was stuck. She didn't know which way to turn. At one point, she told me she was applying for three roles every single day without fail and getting nowhere. But suddenly, everything changed. And what she's going to share with you guys today is the tips and strategies that she used to turn things around to get these amazing results. So you, too, can learn from her, be inspired, and also achieve similar, if not greater results. So, Katalina, tell us a little bit more about yourself.

Katalina: 04:53

Well, like you said, I came from a legal background. I am a law graduate. I also have my LPC, I did all of this in London, and I paralegal at a human rights law firm. During this transition of becoming LPC LLM graduate, I started to take an interest on privacy. This happened to be during COVID so I saw privacy concerns skyrocket in a way that I had never seen before. Obviously, I had previous awareness of GDPR through also my training at my old job as a student as a customer service and sales advisor. So I was aware of it and I did have a like for it. But when I took this deep dive into my master's dissertation and I started to properly research and see how big of an area this was, I was like, wow, this is what I want to do. During my work at that firm, I helped handling cases for vulnerable clients, and I started to realize how information that for ourselves, it may seem trivial, like somebody else having access to my name, my phone number or my email, in the wrong hands and for a vulnerable person, it can be a case breaker, and it's so important to protect information for everybody, but especially in that type of situation. So I decided I wanted to learn more about how privacy met with other industries and how intertwined with legal issues, risk issues. That's why I started working in Fintech.

Jamal: 06:43

All right, awesome. So you busy working hard, focusing on your masters, doing a dissertation, also working at the same time. And then the pandemic comes along and you suddenly realize, hang on a minute, there's all sorts of alarming things coming up, what's happening with people's personal information. You started getting concerned, and the more you started looking into it and researching into it, the more you discovered that so much wrong is taking place, and you wanted to be part of the movement to do something right about it. Does that sound about right?

Katalina: 07:11

Exactly. That's exactly what happened and how it felt like, I may actually belong in this sector. So I decided to research even more and see what I needed in order to become a privacy professional.

Jamal: 07:26

Okay, so it's almost like you had your calling. This was your calling.

Katalina: 07:29

Yes, that's it.

Jamal: 07:31

Okay, so then you started researching into what it takes to become a privacy professional. And what did you discover?

Katalina: 07:39

Well, I thought, like many other interviewees of the podcast have said, that you have to have your proper training contract and then you can get some experience in a law firm that does privacy. It was very frustrating because it's actually very difficult to sit the four seats standard of a training contract and also focus on privacy. It's not a structure that allows you to go as deep as you want in the privacy sector. So I started thinking, is there any other way that I can specialize without going through the traditional legal path? I focused on my work. I focused on my legal studies. And then suddenly I was like, I don't think this is the right approach. I need to prioritize my passion. I need to do what I love. And that's when I found you, Jamal, and I told you, I think I'm making a mistake.

Jamal: 08:37

Right. So how did you first come across me?

Katalina: 08:40

It was LinkedIn and also the podcast, because I made connections with people that happened to be in the academy and that happened to be a guest of your podcast. So I was like, oh, okay, this seems interesting, but it seemed like so far off reach. Like, these people coming into the podcast, they are experts, they're just so far away from me. There's no way I'm going to be able to get their attention and maybe work or train with them. And then I spoke to you, and you got back to me almost immediately and analysed my situation. And you said, I can see that you have the passion and you have the determination, and I'm going to take you through the five C's so that you can get the confidence, the credibility, the clarity that you need and your certification. And that's when I said, yeah, I'm going to go with my intuition, which I barely did back then, and I am going to go for it. I'm going to sign up to the academy. I'm going to become certified.

Jamal: 09:46

So before you signed up to the academy, what was going on for you? How were you feeling?

Katalina: 09:50

Well, I was very frustrated because it felt like I was not choosing where I was going next. It felt like I was on autopilot, like I didn't have control over my professional path, over my life. I was in, like, in a situation where I said, I can choose to now go through a traditional legal path. I can choose to pay very expensive fees in order to qualify as a solicitor in England and also in Spain as a lawyer, and I'm going to have to spend a lot of money. And then after I'm burnt out from doing all of that, I'm supposed to go back and pick up on the privacy, which is what I love. And I just didn't know how to prioritize privacy and my educational privacy until I met you in the academy.

Jamal: 10:41

Okay, so what are the kind of things that you was looking at or looking for before you came across myself on LinkedIn?

Katalina: 10:48

Well, I was seeing if I could get the necessary experience in privacy through another role, maybe, and just to seek maybe from other lawyers or be able to work with privacy lawyers. I didn't really know I didn't have a lot of clarity on what I needed to do next. So I was very frustrated and very confused, and it came to a point where I was almost giving up. I was just going to go with the flow and let my circumstances choose for me. I was reaching out and applying to maybe firms that have privacy departments. And what I was told is, yeah, you have nice background as a paralegal, but we have a lot of applicants, and, yeah, we're not interested. Many firms don't even take you as an intern or an apprentice or anything like that at the moment because it's so busy. Right. Well, I just didn't have all the tools that I have now in order to put myself out there.

Jamal: 11:55

As you were going through this journey of knocking on doors, and they kept slamming the door back in your face, what kind of toll did that have on your motivation and your drive?

Katalina: 12:06

I was devastated. I don't know. It's like I forgot how to be me, in a way. I have a very wonderful education by my parents. They have taught me how to speak confidently in public. They have taught me how to put myself. My dad has actually a background in marketing and sales, and he will take me as a little child to these conferences. So I know how to sell. Like, I know these things, but it's like somehow I let myself forget who I was in the process of trying to make the next move. And, yeah, I was devastated.

Jamal: 12:47

And how did you deal with that?

Katalina: 12:50

I did the only thing that I could at the time, which is reach out to people that knew better than me. In my case, it was you. And by being in the Privacy Pros Academy, I was in an environment where I could be vulnerable, where I could ask people for advice.

Jamal: 13:10

I’m trying to really make sure that we paint the picture where you are. So you're here in the UK. You spent lots of money on expensive legal education. You suddenly discovered that your true calling is in actually fighting and standing for people's right to privacy, and that's your calling. And you've discovered that everything else that you're doing that is not to do with privacy was actually taking energy away from you rather than energizing you. And you felt stuck, and you was like, you know, I have to get into this. And the more you looked at getting into it, the more you kept getting told no, or, you have to specialize as a lawyer, and you have to have a legal background in this. And even though when you was reaching out, saying, hey, I just want some experience, I'm happy to volunteer, I'm happy to come in as an intern, it was like, no, we're not interested. And so that led you to feel devastated and dejected, but you didn't give up. You kept looking for a way, and that speaks volumes about your resilience, about your character, about those values that your parents have instilled in you. Shout out to your parents, by the way, so they've done a great job. And you kept going, and then you kept searching. You came across the Privacy Pros podcast. Who was the first guest that you actually came across that introduced you to the podcast?

Katalina: 14:17

Oh, my God. I want to say Emma Godfree.

Jamal: 14:20

Emma Godfree. Yeah.

Katalina: 14:23

It may be that I listened to other episodes. She probably was one of the first people that I saw in in the podcast.

Jamal: 14:30

Okay, great. And just thinking now, was it how many months ago was it that you came across the podcast?

Katalina: 14:37

Like, a year ago.

Jamal: 14:38

All right, so one year ago, you came across the podcast, and one year later, you're sitting here recording for the podcast. How does that make you feel?

Katalina: 14:45

Incredible. I still cannot believe it.

Jamal: 14:49

Okay, awesome. So let's go back to a year ago. So a year ago, you came across the podcast. So what happened? You started listening to the podcast?

Katalina: 14:55

Yes, I started listening. I started to read some of the materials that you post on LinkedIn, but I was still listening to this imposter syndrome say, you are not going to make it yet. You don't have a lot of legal experience that it felt like I needed to get in order to become a privacy specialist. It's like I lacked understanding of what the industry actually needs. And I let other people tell me that I need to be a lawyer with a lot of maybe business law and commercial law experience, which that is absolutely not true, but this is what I believed at the time, and I was just focusing on all these other wrong information instead of going to the proper sources of privacy, education.

Jamal: 15:48

Tell me more about some of this wrong information you were getting, because I guarantee you there's people that are listening to you right now who are probably feeling very similar sense of dejection because of this wrong information. So let's clear some of those myths, one and for all, so other people don't have to go through the heartache and have the misconception and waste six months, one year, two years, or even give up on their dreams. So one of the misconceptions you had was you have to have a commercial background or some kind of litigation background to be a privacy pro. So that's absolutely not true. And we know that you don't even have to have a legal background. I'm not even a qualified lawyer. In fact, I didn't even do a law degree. I did a business with law many, many years ago.

Jamal: 16:27

So that is absolutely not true. What else did you hear that was absolutely not true.

Katalina: 16:31

It was especially just that, that if you wanted to work as a privacy specialist, you have to have years, maybe five years of experience like volunteering or having a junior role, maybe a privacy consultancy or like some other type of business that has this sort of mix between legal and compliance and that it was very difficult to break into. And also something I think that people should know, it's absolutely not true that most businesses don't need a privacy function, and that's why you cannot really get a job as a privacy professional. That is not true. Most businesses do need a privacy function, whether they know it or not.

Jamal: 17:13

All right, and where was she getting all this information from?

Katalina: 17:16

I was just going on the internet, job portals, job search. At some point I reached out to recruitment consultants, and basically they didn't know what privacy entailed. And I think that I was also fed this information from maybe other roles that they thought were similar but didn't fit within the privacy industry.

Jamal: 17:39

So three key myths there. Number one is that you need to have some kind of commercial legal background. That's absolutely not true. Myth number two is you need at least five years experience in junior senior roles, making tea and coffee, trying to get some exposure. Absolutely not true. And number three is that businesses don't need privacy professionals. Again, absolutely not true. But you know what, Katalina. People don't have to take my and your word for that. The proof is in the pudding. Just go on to LinkedIn and have a look at privacy job roles. Set up an alert for data privacy roles and data protection roles, and then set up an alert for whatever role you're in now or just any other role, and see how many alerts you get for privacy pro roles compared to whatever other role you're looking for. And I guarantee you, you will see a significantly higher proportion of alerts because businesses need great privacy professionals. And the challenge businesses have is there aren't enough great privacy professionals out there. It's because they're too distracted listening to all of this rubbish that's being spouted out. And instead of trying to find ways of adding value to the business doing the right things, they're spending all of their time and energy doing the wrong things. The other thing I often hear a lot about is, oh, you need to just go and get certified, get any certification. That's not true. Like the industry hiring managers, recruiters, they demand the gold standard, which is the IAPP certifications. And I know so many people who waste their savings, waste their money, their parents money, they even get a loan, and they do the wrong certifications, and it gets them nowhere, and it gets them to feel more dejected. So we need to make sure that if you are going to invest in something, it's going to bring you a return on investment as quickly as possible. But also the strategies that you're learning, the strategies that Katalina has been learning and implementing. They need to be the ones that are going to move the needle for you and get rid of all of these objections about not having five years experience, not having a commercial background as a lawyer and anything else that might be getting in your way, making you feel that self-doubt and feeding that impostor syndrome. Because one thing that you've said to me that really made me feel upset, Katalina, was all of this information was feeding the impostor syndrome and making you feel like you don't belong or this is not for you, and encouraging you just to give up. And if you didn't have the resilience that you have, and if you didn't have the kind of support from your parents that you have, it may be you might have given up at some point and you wouldn’t be sitting here today.

Katalina: 20:12

Yeah. I want to touch base on what I said before on the commercial background. I kept hearing this, you have to understand companies, which is true, but for that, you need a lot of commercial legal litigation experience. That is not true. What I find that it's not a non negotiable is you need to care. You need to have a passion for this industry and for people's rights to privacy. I was in human rights, which is something that many companies may seem be like, oh, that doesn't seem very compatible with a commercial mindset. But in a way, you are protecting the rights for every person for their privacy to have their information guarded, respected, how they deserve. So if you have this respect, if you have this background where you care for people's rights, I would say that's pretty much all you need. You have to have the right mindset and the right approach to this industry and that's what really people in it care about when you are a newcomer.

Jamal: 21:12

Absolutely. And we'll get into more of some of your tip in a little while. I want to go back to where we was. So we're about a year ago now, we're still in the past. You came across the Privacy Pros podcast and that's one of the first episodes you listened to as Emma Godfree and you started listening to more episodes and then you was like, you know what, these people are like the elite Privacy Pros and they're so far away from me and I don't know what I can do. What did you learn from the people that you was listening to? Why did you keep listening to the podcast?

Katalina: 21:42

Mainly because in a way, by listening to the podcast, the reasonable part of me was becoming stronger and saying, oh, okay, so you are definitely like you do interview leading experts in privacy very often, but you also interview people that are still commencing on their career. And precisely like Emma, they tell you about their past struggles and what they've done to overcome them. So it's like I almost didn't want to listen because I was too focused on the wrong thing. But by listening to it, I was forcing myself to get out of that shell that I have built and that's really why I kept listening. And then at some point then that's when I decided to take it more seriously and speak to you.

Jamal: 22:30

Okay, so some point during that year when you first came out of the podcast and now you reached out to me, what made you reach out? What was the thought process that went into head? Why at that point did you reach out? What was the trigger?

Katalina: 22:43

Because I had connected with privacy experts in the past and when you comment and interact with their materials, maybe they like back your comment. But Jamal, you actually talk back to every single person. You have an amazing team as well and you make sure that every opinion that people voice on your comment is heard and responded to. And it was like, wow, these people actually care and maybe they're not going to make me feel ignored, which is what was stopping me from reaching out to more people at the time.

Jamal: 23:16

And this is super insightful because this is exactly what happens to most people and it's because our subconscious mind wants to protect us from getting hurt, from getting upset. And so when we think about doing something that's outside of our comfort zone, our subconscious mind, if it's not trained with the right mindset, says, oh, but what if this happens? And what if that happens? And it tells you all of these negative things and it gives you a thousand reasons why you shouldn't do something. And the only thing we need to do to break out of that is to change the question and say instead of saying, oh, what if this happens? Wouldn't it be great if and then fill in the blank and now we feed ourselves with positive suggestions and we are more likely to get positive outcomes. So you overcame the self doubt and the negative. What might happen, what might not happen, because you saw the interaction. You was like, you know what, if there is one person that's not going to reject me or ignore me, it might be this guy over here.

Katalina: 24:08

That was part of it as well. And also, I feel like many people may relate to this. If you are at a position where you're constantly talking about privacy because it's your passion, maybe you're in a business that has nothing to do with privacy or legal or anything like that, and you're trying to put this in people's minds and share this passion that you have. But you encounter that even between your colleagues, they don't take it seriously or they go well. I think that's for people that have something to hide or these typical objections that may make you feel alone, that may make you feel isolated and may even question, is this really the right thing to put my efforts in and my passion in? Because you see this interest, you don't see this interest in other people around you. But actually, if you keep insisting and if you keep speaking about it and you don't give up, you may see that in a year's time, like it has happened to me, the same people that are telling you that's not relevant to us are now asking you for advice.

Jamal: 25:11

Awesome. So then you reached out to me, we had a chat. Remind me what happened.

Katalina: 25:17

Well, I did tell you at the moment I would have to look at my finances, but you gave me a set of tasks to listen to other people's stories and examine my priorities. And I think it was the first time that I seriously examined what I wanted rather than what I think I should be doing, according to everybody else's path, especially in the legal. And I said, you know what? This is what I'm really, truly passionate about. I need to give this a chance, and I need to give myself a chance. Then I joined the Privacy Pro Academy.

Jamal: 25:53

Okay, great. So essentially you managed to get some clarity, real clarity for the first time and put yourself first and put what you wanted first rather than do the things that you ought to do or you should do, according to everyone else.

Katalina: 26:07

Exactly. Especially if you're in a university and pursuing a law degree. You're going to be given a very rigid set of instructions on how to become a professional and what to do next, how your career should look like. I was like, okay, let me try and listen to and follow through. But inside of me, I was like, this is not what I want to do.

Jamal: 26:27

And then we jumped on a call, or you jumped on call with Ananya and we explained the program, the Privacy Pros academy, to you, and then you decided to jump in. What made you decide that it was the right fit for you?

Katalina: 26:40

I talked to you, and I love the transparency that you used to talk to everybody. I love that you actually respect when people say, can you give me some time to think about it? You are very flexible as well. You really want to inspire and help people to become world class privacy professionals. And actually, I think that you do select people with that mindset and discourage people that may just join out of, let's say, let's see if this can just give me money. You want people that are passionate and care. And when I talked to Ananya, Ananya didn't just tell me the course. She asked me about myself. She asked me where I was at, and she actually gave me tips that could help me. And I was like, well, I haven't bought anything yet, and she's already trying to help me. I think these people are really honest, really who they say they are. And my gut feeling was like, you need to do this. I remember talking to Ananya, and by the end of the call, it's like the real me took over and said, Ananya, I think I know that this is going to change my life. And I remember this so clearly because that's exactly how I feel now.

Jamal: 27:54

All right, awesome. And we'll find out just how it's changed your life already. So far, in a minute. Did you have any doubts or fears before joining the program or before you even got on a call with us?

Katalina: 28:04

Oh, my God. Yes. Because when you do research on online programs and I'm in the compliance business, I'm in the KYC due diligence business, so when you start looking up some course providers, you find out, like, they don't really exist, that they have, like, fake online presence. I was like, okay, let me go to Kazient and let me go to Jamal. I went to the company's house. I saw that Kazient was properly incorporated. Like, I did my job. And then I saw the multiple interviews that you've got out there. You have thousands of articles, thousands of mentions and videos. I was like, wow, these people are one of the best consultancies probably in the world, and they're running this program and they want me in there. And that's when my imposter syndrome said, it's impossible that people this good want you to join them. And I was like at that point my confidence was so shattered that I didn't think I was at the level that I probably am and then that's when by talking to Ananya and talking again to you, listening to more of the podcast, I realised they care about one thing people's passion, people's commitment, people's resilience. And yeah, I do have those things. I may not have an amazing background, I may not have a lot of clients that I can throw your way or something like that, which is actually something that happens out there when you research like course providers and training providers. So I said they care about the right things and that's why I'm going to join them.

Jamal: 29:41

Yeah. So the thing we care about is creating a world where every woman, every man and every child enjoys freedom over their personal information. And the reason we're doing what we do is because we are building a community of world class privacy professionals that we empower with world class privacy education. They can go into businesses all over the world and make those positive changes and enjoy thriving careers. And if we can create a big enough community and we can keep up the momentum and bring great people just like you and all the other people that you see around you, then together we can achieve that dream. So that's why one of the things I do is set you tasks at the beginning when I speak to you and say, are you actually serious? Are you passionate? Would you be a great fit for our community? Do you want for people rather than just want from people? And that's probably why I asked you some of the strange questions. That's why we probably and then you ask you some of the questions that you did get is we're just trying to understand, like, would you be a great fit for us and would you help us to move this? And do you actually care about this? And if you do all of these things then amazing, we invite you to come and join the program. It's not like you can go on a website, just buy the program. Like you have to go through the process. So it's great that you experience that. So then you decided you're going to join the program. What anxieties did you have about starting the program and joining the community?

Katalina: 31:00

I had less anxieties at the moment. I had this general fear that am I making the right move? Should I be prioritizing more legal training rather than privacy certifications? But at that point I was pretty confident that I was making the right decision. Especially because when I joined the community, it was such a warm welcome. The materials that I received previous to my CIPPE training, it was so great, so comprehensive, and I was just like diving into the materials reading and I was so happy that even my partner was like, oh, my God, why are you so happy? Where do you look? It's like this happiness that you see now in my face that you hear in my voice. For months, it was gone. I wasn't like this. It feels like this spark of joy of life. I got it when I joined the academy, and I found that my purpose was aligned with what the industry needs from privacy professionals. And just talking to the people in the academy and during the course was game changer for me.

Jamal: 32:05

Tell us more.

Katalina: 32:07

Okay, so I joined the CIPPE training, and one of my fears, I guess, was that everybody else was super experienced. And if I say something wrong, people may think, oh, why is she here? She doesn't belong here. We are top notch experts, and she doesn't know this basic stuff. And I found quite the opposite. First, I found that I had the right foundations, because I don't know why I let myself forget that I have a legal master's, like regulatory compliance and data protection. I don't know why I let myself forget this. And then I was like, all right, actually, I know a lot of this. And with Jamal's training, I'm gaining the clarity of the things that I didn't know. So once I let go of these fears and it was just myself showing up, asking questions, and writing my takeaways and sharing them with everybody, it was the opposite. People wanted to hear more about examples that I had or what I had to say. People reaching out on me on WhatsApp saying, I learned so much from you. People that have gone to way better universities have more experience than me, and they actually this is an environment with the mindset that everybody can learn from each other. So seeing that, it's like it rebuilt all this trust that I had lost.

Jamal: 33:28

Wow, that's super powerful. And how powerful do you think it is to have a community of like-minded, forward thinking people with this kind of a mindset?

Katalina: 33:39

I don't know how I was managing without this before. Well, we have weekly meetings where we revise for the different sets of exams that the Privacy Pros academy helps with, but also we have separate revision sessions. And then I have made awesome friends through this course, so I'm constantly talking to them. We're having also our weekly calls, just us and just hearing each other's experiences and going out. You know what? We should do that, and you should that and just, like, uplifting each other. I don't know how I was managing without this before, and this is something that I would not have found in other course providers. They'll just give you the materials. They'll give you online videos to watch by yourself. And you don't have this community support. You don't have the opportunity to learn from people from all over the world talking to you about their experiences, sharing this knowledge, and just being there for you and letting you be vulnerable when you need to be vulnerable. And also letting them help them with their own challenges if you can. It's just amazing. I don't think I have more words to describe it. You have to see it for yourself.

Jamal: 34:53

All right, great. So you've jumped into the program. You've told us a little bit about the benefits of the community. You spoke about some of the exclusive resources that I've created for the people who joined the academy. So talk to us more about the resources that you get Exclusive of the privacy pros academy. You said you dove in and you're so excited. What specifically about them did you really love?

Katalina: 35:15

It's no shame to admit that many people that are in privacy or have like a compliance function, they do a lot of GDPR related analysis and drafting, but they have not read the GDPR properly and understood exactly what every single one of the articles means. And when I saw the Easy Peasy guide to the GDPR, which now you have released a new version of it, but when I first sat down and read it, I was like, wow. It's like you translate from legalese into normal English. It's so necessary. I was thinking this is something that everyone can understand, everyone can relate to. And for the first time I was like, hey, what if this is the right approach? What if lawyers have been getting this wrong all these years? And the right way to do it is to make things as easy peasy as possible. And also the case summaries, which are something that as a law student, I have to do myself. But seeing this with plain language, without getting into the complicated details and just going to what's important, I was like, this is something that I can take to my supervisor and say, well, this happened before. He's going to read and understand. So it's like it changed my approach to how I was thinking about these issues and I just couldn't get more out of it. I was like, I couldn't get enough. I really want to start this training. I don't think I slept the night before the first day of the training.

Jamal: 36:48

So then you came onto the training. What was that training experience like? The live training with me, what was the experience like for you?

Katalina: 36:56

It was really good because you make it as interactive as possible. Not just from me, but other people in my cohort. We all say it doesn't feel like it's happening online. It feels like we are all next to each other. We feel this connection, which is incredible, and we are talking to each other. It's not just us listening to Jamal explain these concepts, us talking, asking questions, sharing the key takeaways, and having the opportunity to gain as much clarity as possible. You start off by saying that there are no dumb questions. If you need to ask something, this is the space for it. And I see people that in the beginning, they're very doubtful, and then they start to talk and share more. And you see this support in your colleagues faces. That maybe something you lack in your life right now. I know that many people will relate to this. Maybe you don't have this. Maybe you don't have somebody to look at their face, share your experience with privacy, and see this support and understanding. And this is for me, this is one of the most important things that I found in the course.

Jamal: 38:07

What was the actual results that you got having attended the training?

Katalina: 38:11

The first thing is, it's not just about how to pass an exam. From the moment one, you teach us how to rebuild our mindset. So when you invest in something as your mind, you have a return on investment that nobody can take away from you. If you invest on your mindset, you are investing in all areas of your life. And having these mindset exercises and learn how to focus on what we can control what is right and fight for it. That was an element of the training that helped me in other areas of my life, helped me regain confidence when approaching people. I actually love writing. I feel like, at heart, I am a writer. And for many, many months, I just had my LinkedIn sitting there, and it was not getting many results because I wasn't putting anything out there because of fear. What will they say? I don't know. At the end of each session, you encourage people to write their key takeaways from their LinkedIn and you actually comment on it and congratulate every single person that does that. So I was like, okay, I'm going to do it. At that point, I was just letting go of any reservations. I was like, oh, I really convinced myself enough that people either like me or don't. So I'm just going to get everything that I can out there. And that's when I started really seeing results. I started having people reach out to me and asking me about what I was doing, about the program, about my professional experience, things that weren't happening before. And I reconnected with one of my other passions, which is writing, which I don't think it would have happened without you, Jamal.

Jamal: 39:54

So you got the clarity, the confidence you needed from the program, and then you aced your CIPPE training. Talk to us about the exam. How was that experience?

Katalina: 40:04

It can be really daunting because you don't know a lot of this structure. It's a very confidential, of course, what actually gets asked. So, you know, you have a general idea. You have actually mock exams provided by the IAPP that you can take, but it's like, very unknown in a way. So you're like going in there and you're thinking, anything can happen. They can throw me questions that I have never seen before. But I was talking to two of my friends of my cohorts and we were like, when you go into this exam, they take away your phone, they take away all of your elements that don't belong in the exam room. So it's just you and the questions for 2 hours and a half, more or less. It's just you, your mind and the topic that you love the most, which is privacy. So these 2 hours or whatever time it takes you to complete the exam are just for yourself. There is no work phone calls. There is no intrusive thoughts about family issues or it's just about you and your passion and going in with this mindset that I'm just going to go into this exam and this is about the stuff that I love is what actually I think helped me pass.

Jamal: 41:21

All right. Awesome. And I remember you messaging me saying you did some of the grounding exercises during the exam. Tell us more about that.

Katalina: 41:28

I went into the room and I did my breathing exercises. Luckily, nobody seemed to be paying attention to me. Jamal teaches us a breathing exercise at the end of each session, which is actually really good, and it actually works on your mindset, too. And by the end of this breathing exercise, you feel like a brand new person. At least if you do it properly with the right, with mindfulness, it's going to work wonders. So I did the grounding exercise and I was just thinking, I was envisioning myself, passing, calling my mother, posting on the community I just passed, calling my partner, saying, I am a CIPPE. I did it. As you envision it and as you like it, relax yourself and calm down, it becomes so real that you can't not do it.

Jamal: 42:20

So then you went and smashed the exam. You actually achieved it. So this is the thing, the common theme that I'm seeing from the beginning, Katalina, everything I've asked you to do, you followed that proven methodology to get the same results that other people before you have got. And you saw just by putting in the effort to do the things that we know work, you got those outstanding results. So you've passed your certification, but you're still stuck in your role. So what's happening for you now? Because then I remember you booked a VIP coaching call with me, right? What led you to reach out to do that?

Katalina: 42:49

Mainly I booked it because I knew that I didn't have for some reason, I didn't have the confidence to sit in front of someone that may be a privacy expert and try to convince them that I am also a privacy expert and I deserve to work with them. And I don't know why I was in that state of mind, but I said, I think Jamal is going to be able to help me. And by the end of it, I just realized that every single thing that I was thinking was an obstacle was only in my mind. And that was something that I could control by just removing it and focusing on the things that I do know and the things that I can do. Also, like body language and all of the actual practical tips that you give people when they work with you and book these sessions. And so I gained more confidence, and I started to say, okay, even if it's just to test myself, to prove to myself that I can do it, I'm going to book interviews and I'm going to talk to people and I'm going to see what happens. And at the same time, I actually kept talking more about privacy with colleagues, with this mentality of it doesn't have to be difficult, it doesn't have to be full with legalese and waffle. And they started to listen to me. So it was these two processes of internally building my confidence back up and knowing that I can put myself out there and I'm going to be fine. And I started to, in the interview process, focus more on what I can give to the other person rather than, are you going to give me the job? Which is what many people unconsciously do. So I researched about the interviewer at first, and I found a common ground with them. And I made it into a conversation and I was completely for the first time in my life, I was just completely honest and transparent and vulnerable without the fear that because of that I may not get the job. Because in the end, it didn't matter to me that much. I just needed to prove to myself that it was possible. And I got a lot of even of recruiters reaching out to me on LinkedIn without me applying to anything just because of the content that I was putting out there. And I ended up with two interesting job offers in a very little space of time within months and a half since the first conversation with you and Ananya. And I was like, how did this all happen?

Jamal: 45:19

Right? So let me just understand I got that right. So you're saying within the space of about six weeks from start to finish, you changed everything? In part. Your confidence about the way you showed up, about your clarity about your confidence to the point now where everything we promised you has started happening, that recruiters and hiring managers are reaching out to you without you applying for roles and saying, hey, we're interested in you. And then that led you to secure two job offers at double the income that you're currently on right now.

Katalina: 45:54

Yeah, that is true. And I was just shocked because at some point I talked to my father as well, and he said, hey, okay, if you feel like you're not qualified enough, you don't have enough experience, still do it. Do it as an exercise for yourself. I wasn't hoping to actually get this job offers because I was still thinking, okay, realistically there is a lot of other people with more qualifications, blah, blah, blah. But I still showed up. I still went through it. And by going through it and having this mindset of I may not ever see this person again in this process, what can I do for them now? I actually say, do you have any questions about these topics that you feel like I could clarify to you right now in the interview, we're like, actually, can you explain the difference between processor and controller? And I did it like, okay, I'm going to explain to you. As I was explaining to a twelve year old toxic and basically Jamaica's methodology being transmitted through me to these people, they were like, oh my God, I finally understand these concepts. And that is actually what made the difference, being able to explain things as simply as possible and not I have so many years of experience working for this and that firm, and that's basically how I feel like these job offers ended up landing at me. And I was shocked. I was like, seriously? This worked. I cannot believe it.

Jamal: 47:17

And how does it make you feel now when you look back at the struggles that you were facing, let's say eight weeks ago, to where you are now, where you are sitting? Very happy, very comfortable, very inspired, having companies come to you and not give you one, but multiple offers at twice what you're currently or what you are currently earning. How does that make you feel?

Katalina: 47:38

It makes me feel very powerful, very thankful, very grateful for everything that I've come through. And it puts me in a position where I finally have this calmness within me, which for me, that's my six C calm. Like at the end of the process of going through the five C's. I am calm now, and I know that whatever happens, I have the skills and I have the knowledge within me to get to wherever I want to go as long as I'm giving back. And I remain thankful and I remain grateful for everything that's happening to me. So I just feel in control. Finally. I feel okay. I feel like there is a lot of potential and value that I can bring to people, companies, clients. Yeah, I finally feel like I'm going to be okay. I felt like I was in Survivor mode. I was trying to survive, and now it's like I finally got out of that Survivor mode and I'm living and growing as a professional and as a person.

Jamal: 48:42

Strange question for you. Where do you think you'd be now if you hadn't come across the Privacy Pros podcast and then the Academy?

Katalina: 48:51

I don't think I would have gone with any privacy training at all, honestly. I think I would have stuck to a traditional legal path and I would be looking at solicitor qualifying exams and doing a lot of things that I didn't feel like I was ready for and studying legal areas and occupying my mind with things that I don't want to practice just for the sake of getting a pass rate or like a legal diploma being admitted into a legal system. Like a solicitor role, for example. Maybe I'd still be struggling to even put myself out there, to share my passion, to share knowledge with others. And I definitely would still be feeling like in Autopilot and Survivor mode. So I am really thankful, like, what I said to Ananya, that I think this is going to change my life. It did, because it changed my mindset. And if you change your mindset, you change your life.

Jamal: 49:50

Absolutely. I'm going to bring you in to deliver my next mindset session Katalina.

Katalina: 49:57

Well, I'm here to help.

Jamal: 49:58

Yeah. Katalina, so you've shared your journey. You've really been honest, and you've been very vulnerable, so I want to thank you for that. Now, if there's somebody listening right now who might be experiencing some of the same frustrations, some of the same anxiety, some of the same roadblocks that you once faced eight weeks ago, what would you like to say to them?

Katalina: 50:19

I would say that if you're a person that generally cares about the right to privacy that everyone in this world should enjoy, if you're passionate about this sector, the knowledge that you've been able to gain through self study, you feel like this is your calling, but you feel like you're under qualified, you're not good enough. The only difference between you and me is that I put myself out there and that I joined the Privacy Pros Academy, and that's it. The difference between you and me is time. A short amount of time, actually. So just do it. Just go for it. You know what you want. You need to take action. If you just think and think and think, nothing's going to happen until you actually start taking action and make these dreams and desires into actionable projects.

Jamal: 51:05

Wow, great words there. So, yes, take action. Everything begins with taking action. And if someone's sitting there thinking about joining the Privacy Pros Academy, they're a little bit hesitant about the investment. They're fearful that will they get their money's worth? Is it as great as it promises? Or did I just get people to write all of these reviews on LinkedIn? What would you say to them?

Katalina: 51:24

I would say I am very professional when it comes to KYC and compliance checks, and I already did all the compliance that you need. So definitely this is as safe as it gets. It's actually better than they make it look. It's better. I don't know how to describe it. You have nothing to worry about. You have people, not only me, but many people that join the academy, that have gone on to work on their dream roles or have become amazing consultants. So you're definitely on the right environment to do that yourself. But you need a lot of commitment. You need this resilience, and for the duration of the actual training, you need to be there and dedicate yourself to it as much as you can. But it's definitely going to make this return on investment. And also, the good thing about investing in education is that it's something that no one can take away from you. You can invest on stocks, you can invest on property and real estate. That all can go away. Somebody can come and take it from you. Your education, what's in your mind, no one can ever take that away from you. That's the real value of education. And about the privacy pros, it's much more than that.

Jamal: 52:40

think we gave you away about: 3000

Katalina: 56:37

I want to ask you about writing.

Jamal: 56:40

Writing it, yes.

Katalina: 56:41

As you know, it's one of my other passions apart from privacy. So when you start analysing without having a legal background of academically going and getting a law degree, you have accomplished something amazing, which is making the GDPR something that anyone can understand. What is the mindset that you have going on sitting in front of your computer? And before you even start typing, what are you thinking?

Jamal: 57:08

All right, great question. So this is one of the things that we actually teach on the accelerator program. It's part of the elements of mindset and communication and leadership. So before I write anything, before I record any videos, before I do anything, I always ask myself three questions, and the acronyms for that is KFC. Right. So what is KFC?

Jamal: 57:32

So what I mean by KFC is I think about, what do I want them to know, how do I want them to feel, and what do I want them to commit to as a result. And when I was writing the Easy Peasy Guide, I wanted them to know what the law is saying, what the requirements are. I wanted them to feel confident that they understand what the requirements are, and then I wanted them to commit to going and taking the right action to bring about positive change. And it's as simple as that. So before I write anything, before I speak, before I do anything, I'll always get clarity on the KFCs. And if you think about clarity and go back to our C Five methodology, you can see clarity is always the first thing. So that's the secret there. That's the secret weapon I use, is I just get clarity by focusing on the KFC before I do anything.

Katalina: 58:19

Oh, that's definitely easy to remember. Thank you so much, Jamal.

Jamal: 58:24

It's been an absolute pleasure. Katalina, you're so inspiring. And every time you message me with your wins, you have no idea how happy it makes me feel. So keep sharing your wins, keep being visible on LinkedIn, and I look forward to celebrating your next milestone. And you know what the best thing is, Katalina? The best is yet to come.

Katalina: 58:42

You know what the best thing is? That I know that the best thing is yet to come. If you told me this before, you know it one month before, I would have been like, I don't know. And now I'm like, yeah, for me, that's a certainty. It is to come.

Jamal: 58:56

And I really look forward to following your achievements, and I'm really looking forward to how this is going to have an impact on not just your career, but your life and also the people around you that you really care about, too. And we're going to do some great things together. So, folks, it's been an absolute pleasure having your attention for the last 45 or so minutes. If you need help, then reach out. If you just want to have a chat, reach out. Like we said, we want to make sure that you can be the best you can be. And that doesn't mean that you have to pay us money and come to a program of our programs. I'm more than happy to give tips, more than happy to have discussions. We're more than happy to have 15 minutes calls where we actually just say, hey, where are you right now? Where you need to get to and give you a plan. Sometimes you'll take that plan, you can implement it yourself. Other times you might take that plan and say, hey, Jamal, I actually want you to walk me through this, just like you did with Katalina and the other people in the Academy. And I'd definitely love to help you, provide you the right fit for the Academy and the program is the right fit for you to help you to get you where you want to get to. And that's one of the reasons why when you approach me on LinkedIn, I'll ask you, go on away and have a little think about what your goals are. Don't tell me what you think that you should be or what someone else has told you, but really understand what it is that you want. And then when I'm clear that you're clear on what you want, if I can help you, I definitely will. And if I can't, I'll send you the right way where someone else can definitely help you with that, because we want to see you moving forward. We want to see you taking action, and we want to create the world's best community of elite, world class privacy professionals. So together we can fulfil our vision soon as possible. Until next time, peace be with you.

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