Jamal: 00:00

The best time to get into privacy was five years ago, but the second best time is now. The privacy industry is booming more now than it has ever before. While we're seeing lots of people being made redundant from big tech companies, the one area that we are seeing that is getting still hiring and where there is opportunities even though they're shedding everyone else is in the privacy roles. And let me tell you guys one thing. I spent so much time trying to fit in. I went to events, I went to places, I thought, let me dress like them, let me speak like them, let me carry the things they carry, let me do everything I need to do, let me stay in the background and just try and fit in. And that is the biggest mistake you can make, and it's the biggest mistake I made.

Jamal: 00:40

Are you ready to know what you don't know about privacy pros? Then you're in the right place.

Jamal: 00:47

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. The podcast to launch progress and excel your career as a privacy pro.

Jamal: 00:58

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy. Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals, and hear real stories and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to.

Jamal: 01:14

We’re an Official IAPP training partner.

Jamal: 01:17

We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

Jamal: 01:22

So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you are an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Jamal: 01:38

hly paid privacy role fast in: 2023

Jamal: 03:39

So you're about to discover the real reason why you're finding it impossible to land the role you truly desire. Now, whatever it is that you think is holding you back, some people say it's lack of experience. I'm going to show you that you're actually wrong. It's not lack of experience holding you back, it's something else. So we're going to get into that. And I'm also going to share with you the two deadly myths that most people think is true, but it's actually just not true at all. And then we're going to share and we're going to discover the simple five step formula. It's going to help you from going from wherever you are right now to landing a highly paid privacy role or a top tier privacy role in twelve weeks or even less. My promise to you is by the time we're finished, you'll be easily able to build a clear and concise roadmap from getting from where you are right now to landing a highly paid role as a privacy professional. And even if you're not looking for a highly paid role, we're looking for a top tier role where you get that work class balance, where you're treated with respect, and where the knowledge that you bring to the table is actually valued and you're able to enjoy a fulfilling and challenging role. You always hear me talking about a world class privacy pro? What is a world class privacy pro? So you are all about to become world class privacy pros. You will become somebody who is making a big impact. You will be a highly respected individual in the industry and it'll be somebody who can actually take the knowledge that you've acquired through all of your studies, through all of your training, and you can apply that in every single scenario. So the people who come and work with us, we say, look, it's very simple. All we have to do is take the principles and we learn how to apply them in any given scenario. And we also apply our c five formula, a world class privacy pro is somebody who is in the right environment. So you will be surrounded with other world class privacy professionals. And together, when you have challenges, you will solve those problems together, you will have people to bounce ideas off and you have people from different parts of the world, different backgrounds, different cultural expertise, different industries coming in. And together they're really going to help you to make sure you never feel alone. And whatever challenge comes your way, you always have the right environment and community around you to help you to solve those challenges. And of course, it's very important to make sure that we don't just focus on work, work, work. So a world class private professional is someone who understands having that holistic nature and making sure that there's that work life balance to everything that they do and to all of the people that they work with as well.

Jamal: 06:04

So why would anyone join us? The reason people join us is because they love being part of a supportive and a knowledgeable community. We make it easy peasy to land a highly paid privacy role where you can actually go and make an impact. The one thing that's really important is the opportunity is now. The best time to get into privacy was five years ago, but the second best time is now. The privacy industry is booming more now than it has ever before. While we're seeing lots of people being made redundant from big tech companies, the one area that we are seeing that is getting still hiring where there is actually opportunities even though they're shedding everyone else is in the privacy rules. People are starting to realize that privacy is actually a game changer. And for those companies who are once driven by risk, they're actually now saying the consumers are driving, that we be more privacy friendly and therefore they're investing heavily in building out those privacy teams so they can cultivate trust, inspire confidence and ultimately get more sales and make more money. So privacy is no longer seen as a blocker. We should be seen as something that we're actually going to help to enhance the business, to actually realize some of their business objectives. And the question is, if you're not going to do anything about it now, then when are you going to actually do something? And one of the things that you see we value in our community is action takers. We value people who actually say, I want to do this and they get started and working towards that plan. So sometimes people say, look, I don't even know where to get started. How can I get started?

Jamal: 07:32

Like, it's easy, but there's something holding me back I don't know which way to turn. I don't know where I should apply for roles. Oh, my CV is holding me back because of the kind of background I have. I don't have any experience, so I don't know what to do. I've been trying to get people to hire me for voluntary positions. They don't want to know. So there's so many different challenges and things that hold you back, and they held me back. So I'm going to give you a plan where none of those things will matter, and you can actually get started on doing those things straight away by the time we're done. And my vision is that my little ten month old daughter will grow up in a world where every woman, every man, and every child enjoys freedom over their personal information, no matter where they are in the world. But in order for us to be able to fulfil that vision, or in order for me to be able to fulfil that vision, we need to make sure that every organization that handles personal information is empowered to do that in a way that is honest and that is transparent. So I set up Kazient Privacy experts, the consultancy to do that, and very quickly we realized even if we work with some of the largest companies in the world, it's only a drop in the ocean. We need more people to come and help us, and we can't necessarily have a team of consultants. We actually need to go into organization and make sure that every single organization on the planet has somebody who has been empowered to adopt those honest and transparent privacy practices. So we set up the Privacy Pros Academy, and that's where you can see we're building a community of like minded individuals who share the same vision, who care about privacy and together we are creating a movement where we're actually going to organizations and making sure they're adopting those honest and open privacy practices.

Jamal: 09:12

So that's why we have the Privacy Pros Academy, and that's why we have such a powerful and supportive community. So whenever you come into the Privacy Pros Academy, you become part of that community. And together we all get to work on our vision. And right now, I think we've got a representation in 137 countries across the world and counting. So let me tell you a little bit more about my journey, how I got to where I was. So I was stuck as a case handler. I was working for a government department. Some of you might have heard of the Financial Ombudsman service. So I was stuck as a case handler there, and I was really frustrated and I hated being micromanaged. And the thing is, the money actually sucked, right? I was living paycheck to paycheck. Actually, I had got married close to that time. I wasn't actually able to enjoy the kind of lifestyle that I felt I deserved. And every time a bill came in. It was like opening like, expletive word, how am I going to pay this, right? And then you go to a habit where you're putting stuff on credit cards, and now you have to think about what you're buying, you're budgeting. And if I wanted to go on holiday, I kind of had to think like six months in advance and start planning and budgeting for that. And I was like, I don't want to do this kind of thing. Number one, I'm not fulfilled. I'm going to work and I'm doing a job. And that job basically anyone could do. I'm not bringing any value here. You train somebody, they're running a process, and that's what I'm doing three, four, five times a day. And the more times a day I run that process, the happier my manager is.

Jamal: 10:37

But it's making me miserable. It's making me very miserable because I can't see how I'm adding any value to the organization, how I'm adding any value to individuals, how my existence is actually meaningful. And we spent so much of our time working that for me, being fulfilled in what I do, being challenged, being given challenges, and saying, go and find creative ways of solving those things was very important to me. So I was in a place where my job sucked, and I'm grateful I had the job at that time because a lot of people don't actually have jobs and it can get really tough. So I'm not being ungrateful for what I had, but for me, it just wasn't where I wanted to be. I wasn't fulfilled, I wasn't challenged, and I definitely wasn't earning the kind of money I wanted to have the lifestyle that I felt that I deserved, my wife deserved, and the baby I was about to have deserved. So I was like, I need to go and I need to do something. And I need to do something that is actually going to make a meaningful difference, that's going to have an impact. But that also means that I can enjoy the financial independence or the freedom that comes with one of those roles.

Jamal: 11:40

And I couldn't find anything better than privacy that would naturally take all of the existing soft skills I had and help me to implement that in a way that actually helped. So along the way, I had lots of different challenges. Some of the things that are holding you back experience, being from a different background, not being middle class, not being a lawyer, there's so many things that are holding all of us back. And I want to show you that none of that matters. And we're going to make sure we strip away all of those limiting decisions and negative self talk so we can really focus on being outstanding. And I want to show you that regardless of whether you have any qualifications or not, whether you have any experience or not, whether you come from a certain part of the world or not, none of that matters when you apply these steps and you do it with excellence, you can go from anywhere you are to the absolute career of your dreams and have the lifestyle you want. Okay? So as I said, I was failing, so I thought, let me go and become a privacy professional. And I thought, you know, the first thing I want to do is let me become a privacy analyst. So I started applying for all those privacy analysts, and I didn't even get a single call back. I didn't even get an email acknowledging that I've been applying for this job. So I thought, you know what, why don't I just apply for more jobs? Surely it's a numbers game. That's what I need to do. So I started applying for more jobs, and it got me nowhere. So I was stuck here. I wanted a role, I wanted to get out of what I was actually doing, and nobody was getting back to me.

Jamal: 13:15

So I said, you know what, I need to go and get certified. So I went and took a bunch of courses. I spent a lot of money, actually. In fact, I almost spent all of my money taking courses. But you know what? There was actually no one there to tell me, don't waste your money on courses that nobody's heard of. The ones you need are the ISO ones and the ones endorsed by the IAPP. But I had to spend a lot of money and make those mistakes along the way to then finally discover that no one's even willing to look at my CV unless I have the IAPP certifications on them. And then at this point, I actually found I was very fortunate. I got myself a mentor, and my mentor showed me, look, whatever it is that you need to do or you want to do, you want to be the best at it. So find a niche and understand what part of the organization you're going to add value and how you're going to add value to them. And you can self study and pass an exam. Anyone can. But that's not going to demonstrate to them when you go and actually speak to them that you know what you're talking about, all you're going to do is regurgitate something read in the textbook. And when people hear that in interviews, they're just going to switch off, right? They're just going to switch off. Because you're like everyone else. There is nothing that stands out about you. And what they said to me is, you need three things, Jamal if you want to get hired for the top tier roles. Regardless of which industry you go in, regardless whether you're privacy professional or not, what you need to do is make sure you can show your employees, your recruiting managers, the people you work with, what makes you different, what makes you superior to the competition, and how you're unique.

Jamal: 14:40

So remember those three things. In fact, write those three things down. Regardless of where you go in life, whether you're trying to find a partner or a spouse to marry you, whether you're trying to get a role somewhere, whatever you're trying to do, these are three things that you need to prove to stand out and get the best things. So number one is you need to show how you're different. Number two, you need to know why what you're offering is superior, or what you're bringing to the table is superior than anyone else. And number three is how it's different to what they can get anywhere else. And if you can do those three things, then there is nothing stopping people from chasing you down to ask you to come and share the value with them that you're offering them. And whether that's in a work context, whether you apply that in a relationship context, or whether you apply that in a health context, it doesn't matter. It works in anything. And that was the biggest lesson I actually took away from my mentor. So here I was coming back to my story, applying for roles, getting nowhere, and then I realized, get certified. So I went and did a bunch of certifications. And I actually like training, that's the best way to learn. So I actually went and did the live training. I didn't just trying to do self study as my mental thought I might be doing, but none of those certifications was actually recognized by anyone in the industry or any of the places I was applying for roles. And it was only through having lots of conversations when I went to some of these, you go to these industry events. We used to have lots of them in London and around the UK that I heard of the IAPP and stuff, and that's when I came across the IAPP certifications. So I thought, look, it's a certification problem, that's what it is. So once I got the certifications and I finally got the right certifications, I actually started getting one or two more calls out of the hundreds of roles I was applying for. The challenge now was though, I would never go past the screening call. So what I mean by screening call everyone who's been through the recruitment process, you might be familiar with how it works. When you go and apply for a job, the CV goes in, and then if the CV gets picked up by the applicant tracking system, then they give you a call back, and then the recruiter will often call you and try and suss you out.

Jamal: 16:47

Like they call that a screening call. And if you've been able to answer the questions and they feel like this person seems like they might be worth talking to, you will then get your first interview where they put you in front of the hiring manager. And then if the hiring manager likes you, they'll invite you back for a second interview. And normally at that second interview, you would be interviewed by somebody senior, there might be somebody from HR there. And at that point they would either make you an offer or ask you to never come back and talk to them ever again, depending on how well or how badly the interview goes. So that's usually how the recruitment process works and there are different things you need to demonstrate at each cycle. So I kept failing at the first hurdle, which was I wasn't getting the screening calls and where I was, they didn't want to hear from me again. And there was nobody giving me the feedback. The recruiters, even though I chased them incessantly, they wouldn't tell me what was wrong with my approach. So I had to spend a long time trying to figure out what is it that they actually want that's not making any sense. So I decided, you know what, I'm going to go and read more articles. I'm going to go and go to more events, I'm going to watch more webinars, and I'm going to build up my knowledge. And in fact, I decided I'm going to go and memorize some of these key concepts. So whenever someone asks me a question, I know exactly what to say. You know what, the thing is that was probably the biggest mistake I could have made and it probably cost me at least six months in my career journey is because nobody wants to know how smart I am. Nobody wants to know how much information I've memorized because they can actually go and Google any of that information. What they want to understand is I know how to apply this stuff.

Jamal: 18:23

So one of the steps I'm going to tell you about later is demonstrating how to actually go and apply this in the roles that you need to do and what you need to be able to provide that so you can get past those interviews. So eventually I got to the stage where I got to the interviews, but now they're asking me, have I actually done this before? Have I actually done a data protection impact assessment? Have I actually done any data mapping? And in my role that I had, I hadn't. So they get telling me, I don't have the experience. I don't have the experience. And then it took me a long time to realize because I got very dejected. Like, I don't have the experience. And if they don't give me the experience, then how am I ever going to get hired and how am I going to get the experience? It doesn't actually make any sense. And so I got very dejected. And by this time I've spent all of mine and my wife, our combined savings on taking all of these programs and it starts getting very expensive and your funds start getting depleted. And you're sitting there. The confidence that you had before you started applying for work because you're getting nowhere. It starts chipping away at you and then that starts impacting your social life and other things. And you just become very moody and you start saying things that you don't even mean to people that you actually love and care about. I went through a lot of challenges. I was in a very bad place for a very long time. But you know what? All praise to God. I managed to get through it almost as if by chance, something amazing happened. And that's when I discovered everything that hiring managers were looking for.

Jamal: 19:54

It became very clear to me, how can you make yourself and position yourself as attractive to the prospective employer? And I started learning everything I could do on the practical side of things and I realized it wasn't actually experience holding me back, it was just the way I was positioning myself. And as soon as I got the actual secret elements of what we needed to position ourselves, I started looking like an expert. And suddenly I was getting offers left, right and centre. And since that time, I've been named by the BBC as the King of Data Protection. I've had hundreds of people coming to me from all different parts of the world asking me to help them also have successful privacy careers. I was shortlisted for Two Privacy Piccaso Awards. I'm an international keynote speaker. They asked me to speak on all things related to privacy, even facial recognition technology. I work with major companies around the globe and I'm also asked by the media to commentate on radio. I'm asked to write articles. I've been awarded excellence in enterprise. You can see some of the trophies in the back over there. But all of these amazing things started happening. So how did I go from being stuck, frustrated, dejected to getting all of these results? I managed to break all of those things down into five steps. I tried it on myself. Then I helped my younger brother, who went to actually work for OneTrust for a while. He now works for a facial recognition company, innovating the way technology is used for all of those great things.

Jamal: 21:19

And then another Mentee of mine Fayaaz is now actually the head of one of the top five consultancies when it comes to data privacy in the UK. So how can we both go from where we were working together at the financial ombudsman a few years ago to where we are now leaders in the industry? And it all comes down to the steps that I'm going to share with you. I mean, to show you all of that. Not to impress you, but to impress upon you how easy it is or given the right guidance, how you can go from being broke, being stuck, having no legal background, to actually thriving in a career where it's dominated by people who want to do their best to keep you up. And so that you can aspire to see that all of those things, if I can do them and I know all of the people I work with are so much more smarter than me. Some of you guys have much better education than me. A lot of you are actually lawyers already, so you are actually primed for success and your journey should be a lot bigger than mine. All you need is the right guidance and go and implement the steps I'm going to share with you. And if you need help, we're here to support you with whatever you need. But just go and implement those steps and you'll go from wherever you are right now to wherever you aim to get to. Okay? So some of the challenges that I hear people coming to me with at the Privacy Pros Academy is saying, look, I go to the interviews, I'm getting the interviews, but they keep saying somebody was more attractive than me. And I mean attractive not in a physical sense, but as on paper more attractive because they had more experience and because they had more certifications and that's what's holding me back. Other people say, well, I'm stuck in a role where I'm being paid peanuts and I have no opportunities for professional growth because all I'm doing is doing subject access requests all day long.

Jamal: 22:59

And when I go for interviews, they ask me questions. I don't have the technical experience of other things, so I can't get some of those better roles. Yeah, other people come and say, look, I don't actually think I know what I'm doing and I don't want to apply for other roles. I'm just happy being here because I'm left alone. But I don't think I know what to do. I don't think I could actually advise the business even though I know stuff. I just feel like I don't know what I'm talking about and I don't want to get caught out. And when people come and ask me questions, I don't like it. So there's all of that self doubt and that imposter syndrome which is going to be holding you back and stops you from progressing. So one of the things we focus on is the mindset element of the program is getting rid of all of those self limiting decisions and negative beliefs. And then the other challenge people have is you're very academically smart, but then you don't know how to take that knowledge and apply it to real life scenarios. And especially when you're asked about that in the interviews, you struggle to do anything other than repeat something that you read somewhere. And the other final thing people do is look, they feel scared, they feel overwhelmed. You've invested all of this in all of these things moving in your time, your energy, your money, and you just don't know which way to go. You don't know all of the paths that are available to you. So I'm going to give. You a little bit more clarity with that. But essentially what I've discovered is almost like a franchise like system, something that actually works. And you can see it working for me, you can see it working for all of the mentees that we have on the program. Regardless of whether they're from the UK, whether they're from the US or whether they're from India, every single person has come in the program from different backgrounds, different parts of the world, they all get success. So we're going to talk about secret number one is how you can use your mind to gain a powerful edge over anyone else who's competing with you.

Jamal: 24:45

The next thing we're going to look at is why subject matter expertise is so important. Step number three is how do you actually get that practical know how even if you haven't got experience of doing it. Step number four is how getting that credibility will magnetically attract your positions to you. And step number five is how do you then enhance your personal branding in a way where you're outstanding from the rest of the competition. And let me tell you guys one thing. I spent so much time trying to fit in. I went to events, I went to places, I thought, let me dress like them, let me speak like them, let me carry the things they carry, let me do everything I need to do, let me stay in the background and just try and fit in. And that is the biggest mistake you can make. And it is the biggest mistake I made because by trying to fit in to an industry that doesn't actually recognize the value you bring is only going to show and highlight all of the things that are wrong with you. But the moment, the moment you become outstanding and you deliver everything with excellence, everything changes. It doesn't matter if you're black. It doesn't matter if you're brown. It doesn't matter if you're white. It doesn't matter if you're a man. Doesn't matter if you're a woman. It doesn't matter if you're old, if you're young. If you have a visa, you have no visa. The moment you start becoming outstanding and excelling in everything that you do, people want to work for you and they forget about everything else. None of that matters. But if you're trying to fit in, then all of those things matter and all of those things will hold you back. And that is something that I've been waiting a long time to share. Don't try and fit in. Be outstanding and stand out. That is going to be the difference that makes the difference. And in a moment, I'm going to ask Siobhan to come in and share her story about why she chose to pivot from her awesome marketing career and come into actual data privacy. Siobhan welcome here. Tell everyone a little bit about yourself and what made you want to kind of pivot your career to privacy.

Siobhan: 26:43

Yeah. So it took a little bit of a unique path for me, but I've worked a lot in marketing, and especially in very technical marketing side of data analysis and playing with data a lot. And obviously with the GDPR coming around and having a new client, privacy came up a lot for me, and it naturally led me to read about it, understand it more. So I developed a passion for it, took it more serious, and started deciding that I wanted to combine the two elements of marketing along with the privacy elements, and that's what drove me into privacy.

Jamal: 27:19

And what kind of fears did you have when you were thinking, let's make sure we're not beating around the bush about it. Guys if you don't know, then get to know. Siobhan is one of the best programmatic marketers out there in the planet right now. So she is already leading in the industry when it comes to marketing and those analytics. So for her to then say, I want to pivot, that must have been quite scary, because you've already in a very, a position that a lot of people would love to be in. How is it someone in your position and says, I now want to pivot? Like, I know why I wanted to pivot is because I was very unhappy with where I was. Share more about that.

Siobhan: 27:58

Yeah. So I think the reason I wanted to pivot is because I realized through my research that privacy was a really fundamental right that people had that I didn't think was being communicated well enough to the people I was working with, meaning myself, marketing and data people, and that there was a little bit of a disconnect. And the more I realized how fundamental of the right it is and how much it spoke to me, it made me realize that I wanted to go into the field. It was scary. I can't even tell you how scary. And it took a lot for me to kind of find the right community to feel comfortable with it. But I'm in the lucky position that I didn't really have to give up my expertise in marketing and analytics and data because I'm able to combine the two, because I see that it's so important to be able to combine the two. But having to give up something you've built up obviously is always scary. But if you find the right reason, then it kind of takes away some of that fear.

Jamal: 28:52

Okay, great. You said you work very hard to find the right community to kind of support you. What did you do to find the right community? How does one know one is the right community for them?

Siobhan: 29:02

Yeah, so for me, community is a lot about having a safe space to ask questions and feel comfortable enough asking and having a variety of people answering, not just one person. So community is not just me asking questions or everyone asking questions and just them all answering it is really a community is when everyone has input and you feel really safe asking your peers any kind of questions. And that's what I got. And that's how I knew I got the right community, because I didn't want something that was one sided and I didn't want something where I didn't feel safe asking questions, even if they might be, for lack of a better word, a stupid question.

Jamal: 29:37

Okay, so Siobhan given how senior you are, given how amazing you are and guys, the reason I'm saying Siobhan is amazing is because she has told me about all of her achievement. She does like the what do you do?

SIobhan: 29:54

I do a lot of data mapping, data analysis, and understanding users behaviours and then marketing to them. I'm actually currently at a week-long conference just about analytics and data.

Jamal: 30:05

What led you to then saying, I want to find somebody to guide me? Right. You're so smart, why didn't you do it yourself?

Siobhan: 30:12

Something I've learned, I think, over the years of me being new to a field more than once and also having been a mentor to people, is that when you have the right coach or a mentor, it is really the essence of being able to come into a field. You can learn a lot by yourself, but ultimately that one on one guidance, or even one on many guidance is quite important. And that is what made me look for a mentor in the field, not necessarily just for a weekend course. So I really needed to find a space where I could feel that I was supported and to work me through everything.

Jamal: 30:49

Thank you for sharing, Siobhan. And full transparency, guys Siobhan is currently on one of our programs. How has the program been for you? Was it worth it? Did you make the right decision? Let's be honest here. The programs aren't for everyone. There is a significant investment that you had to make. So you actually said, you know what, Jamal, here's my money. And that was a few months ago, actually going through that. Do you think you made the right decision? Was it worth it? What are some of the things value that you've got from it and how do you feel about your decision?

Siobhan: 31:17

Yes, I feel pretty good about my decision. It was a very quick decision that I made because the course had already started and I was wondering if I would regret it. I don't regret it one bit. I think that more important than even the accelerator, which gave me a lot of hands on experience, which is exactly what I wanted. I did not want another course to study for the CIPPE or the CIPT. I really wanted to get a little bit more relative experience, like what is a ROPA really? How do we write privacy notices? Why is it important? How does it apply to the business? I needed that. I can go study a book by myself. But more importantly, I'm with a group, a small group of peers that I've really learned to support each other. And I think that's priceless, knowing that I've got a group of peers that are really that I can lean on, that support me, that cheer me on, and I get to cheer them on, and Jamal is kind of just cheering all of us on. I think that is the essence. So the community, combined with being able to have real life examples and actually trying things and getting your feedback has been priceless to me.

Jamal: 32:19

Your experience of those five pillars that we're going through, how has that been a game changer for you in the way you approach things?

Siobhan: 32:26

Yeah, I think a lot of it, especially discussing mindset and how we approach the pivot, as well as in my case, and how to approach privacy in general, I think it's been really helpful because it's taking a step back and looking at how to make changes and how to adjust, how you're thinking about change. And even though sometimes I think I personally like to think, oh, I don't want to hear about that, in the end, it really does help in the way you think about things, and it pushes you into a space that you wouldn't have been before.

Jamal: 32:57

One other thing I want to ask you before you go is what is the message that you'd love to share with all of the amazing people that we have?

Siobhan: 33:04

I think that if you have an open mind about it and you really want to understand how things work and not just pass the test, this is a really great community to be in, but you do need to be curious. You need to be inquisitive and you need to be open. If you have that and you want that challenge and that push to grow, then you're in the right space.

Jamal: 33:24

And also, if there's anyone here thinking, you know what, our company needs some help with marketing. How can they get in touch with you about those some things that you do as well?

Siobhan: 33:32

Yeah, you can find me on Twitter and LinkedIn, Siobhan Solberg, but you'll probably have to look up the spelling of Siobhan because it's the Irish spelling.

Jamal: 33:40

All right, awesome. Thank you so much. It's been absolutely amazing. Thank you

Outro: 33:47

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Outro: 33:54

Remember to join the Privacy Pros Academy Facebook group where we answer your questions. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're leaving with some great things that will add value on your journey as a world class privacy pro.

Outro: 34:07

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Outro: 34:09

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Outro: 34:21

Until next time, peace be with you.