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Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Kazient PrivacyPros Academy podcast. My name is Jamilla. And I'm a Data Privacy Analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislation as well as key developments and any decisions by supervisory authorities. With me today as my co- host is Kazient's CEO, Jamal Ahmed. Jamal Ahmed is a Fellow Of Information Privacy and CEO at Kazient Privacy Experts. He is a leading Global Privacy Professional, World Class Trainer and Lead Mentor at the PrivacyPros Academy.
Hi everyone, looking forward to our guest.
Our guest today is Avishai Ostrin. Ever since Avishai's first law and technology course at university he knew he had a passion for the interplay between tech, and the law. Avishai is a dual qualified Israeli and UK lawyer, and is the head of Privacy at Asserson a UK law firm based in Israel. His practice focuses on advising Israel, and the UK's top tech players from small startups to large corporates on all areas of data protection and privacy. He also acts as DPO for several of his clients, based in Tel Aviv the heart of the startup nation he aims to bring a refreshed perspective to the world of privacy and data protection. Wow, thank you for joining us Avishai.
Thanks so much for having me. I apologise for the mouthful on my intro but thank you so much, it's wonderful to be here.
No it's a really amazing bio, so we're gonna start off with an icebreaker if that's okay.
Sure, of course.
I came up with this after having a look at your LinkedIn and seeing your posts about Marvel vs DC and Jamal knows I like to ask very obscure questions about data privacy. So, would GDPR apply in the Marvel universe?
that is an excellent question. I think definitely, I'll tell you why I think it would apply because, as we know, GDPR has x territorial scope, which means, even if you're even if you're collecting information of European data subjects so even if you're located outside of Europe, even if you're on other planets. So if you're on Planet Asgard, and you're collecting European data subjects information, you'll still be subject to GDPR, so I definitely think that it applies, that would be my answer.
That's interesting. I was thinking about Asgard because in Thor too, Jane goes from London to Asgard, and therefore GDPR would apply to her there.
but the UK GDPR, the UK GDPR.
very interesting, thank you for answering one of my obscure question,
no problem, I'm all for the obscure questions it's what gets me going.
So I also read the article Avishai, and I read that you and your wife are doing a marathon on watching one of the Marvel movies, how's that coming along?
Listen lockdown has been so long, that we finished that ages ago. We're waiting for the next one to come out, I'll tell you though Jamal, it's very interesting because there's a fierce debate amongst Marvel fans on which order you should watch the MCU movies as you may know, or if your listeners are Marvel fans. Do you watch them in the order in which they were released, starting with Iron Man, or do you watch them in the order in which they occur chronologically, in which case you would start I believe with Captain America, because it takes place in World War One or two. No, so we did, we did in the order of release, we were true to the way in which Mr. Stan Lee would have us watch them.
Well I never watched any Marvel films until lock down, and I watched them in the order they came out and because that for me as a new Marvel watcher made sense. And then when I went back for a second marathon, then I could do it logically, because the end of credits and post credit scenes that marvel, they only make sense when you watch them watch them in the order of release, it's very true. I mean we could turn this whole podcast on to know what you think of one division if you've been watching that, which is Marvel's new thing,
I think we should move on to
We're never gonna end this conversation otherwise.
Yeah, and what sparked your interest in data privacy?
I've always been really really fascinated, both by the law which is why I went to study in the university, but also by technology and technology innovation, new products, new solutions. I like to say that I'm as big a tech geek, as one can get without actually having gone and studied engineering and knowing how any of this stuff actually works, because I love those two areas I really really wanted to focus my practice on combining those two areas and once I found the privacy and data protection world, protecting people's data in the technological context, thinking about how new technology may impact people's human rights, and people's privacy rights, I found that area. I truly fell in love, is something that I enjoy, not just practising and making a living out of, but also, it's something that I have a real passion for on a personal level, people may have seen this stuff, post about it a lot, I write about it a lot I blogged about it i Come on podcast to speak about it because it really is something I care deeply about and enjoy deeply talking and debating about
You were recently voted to be in the top 1% on LinkedIn Avishai, and I think that's largely down to what you've just expressed, you do provide a lot of value, and especially for myself and others in the data privacy community. I always find your post very insightful and fascinating, on behalf of myself, all of the people in the Privacy Pros community and data privacy professionals worldwide, both now and aspiring I want to thank you for all of your efforts towards that. I know it must take a lot of time in addition to doing your day job, but thank you very much.
Thank you. Thank you very much Jamal, I really appreciate you saying that and maybe this is a great opportunity to take a message to anyone who's listening to us, sometimes these areas of law and regulation can seem intimidating or dark or scary or you don't really feel like you have anything to say, don't be afraid to have your own voice, don't be afraid to voice your opinion, let people know what you're thinking and create conversations and, you know, now is the time, and LinkedIn is certainly the place to have these conversations and to let people know what you're thinking and engage with other people on topics that are of interest to you, so I would definitely encourage people to do that.
Thank you Avishai, and you mentioned your interest in data privacy and I think your passion really comes through, whenever you're speaking about data privacy and what is it that you love most about working in the sector?
The cool thing about privacy for me is that obviously the interplay with the technology, but it's also the fact that there are so many aspects and so many elements that it touches that it's not just one thing. As you guys know, and as your listeners know who are privacy professionals, when you're a privacy professional, you cannot have tunnel vision, you can only be thinking about one thing. So let's say we're talking about GDPR compliance with a company, you have to think about the product team, of course you need to think about, you know, how the product is going to comply with the privacy by design principles etc but you also think about the sales team and the marketing team and HR, the you know the C suite, and do you have the appropriate budget to, you know, provide education and awareness training and you know, all of these different things, you know, in some ways, privacy is just taking this area of data, and applying it in every single element of the business, and I find that really really cool to be able to sit down with people who have completely different backgrounds to me understand what they do, and then apply the rules, the processes are the principles that I come with from the privacy world, to what they're doing and being able to then look back and say wow, that company, put out a product that millions and millions and millions of people use, and because I spoke to them about doing it this way, not that way. I actually helped in preserving those customers those clients, privacy, you know, having that impact and really speaking to all different areas of the business is something that I find super exciting to do.
And I guess that means you know you face different challenges every day and it keeps things interesting, and there aren't too many careers where you get to see that scope of the business and get involved in those things.
Absolutely, you can have a conversation with the CEO and within an hour, it can be completely different then you're doing awareness training for the sales team and you're dealing with a subject access request the next hour and you're dealing with, God forbid a breach the next hour and all these things just kind of different and eclectic and interesting. So that's why I love it so
much. I would have to agree with you Avishai. I think the one of the things that I love most about a career in data privacy is that no two days have ever been the same, everyday you never know what's going to come up every business is different every client has their own specific needs, and it's not just businesses and clients. This is something that can impact governments and individuals worldwide Absolutely. One of the things that we're starting to see is, even though everybody's at home during the lockdown. There are still infringement on our civil liberties, when it comes to data privacy, lots of countries around the world I think about introducing immunity passports. What are your thoughts on Israel's green passport. And for anyone that doesn't know what the green passport is it's about the arguments that we're seeing everywhere where we're seeing for you to be able to travel or have access to certain places, you should be able to prove that you've been immunised against the virus.Avishai:
It's an excellent question and actually Jamal I watched your interview that you gave on, I believe it was a Sky News or BBC maybe one of the big, large news outlets on a you had a debate with Rebecca Butler yesterday about the green passports, I think you're absolutely right, I think, you know we are, we are faced now, with a global health crisis, the magnitude of which the world hasn't seen in, in 100 years since the 1980s. We've all heard the stories, different countries are grappling with this situation in different ways, and are trying to figure out what the correct balances between protecting people's civil liberties and protecting people's human rights, on the one hand, and on the other hand, allowing countries to go back to some sense of normalcy and go back to their lives. Now, specifically in Israel, we've had a number of decisions that have been made by the government, whether it was the use of intelligence services to monitor COVID patients, whether it was the completely botched attempt at the Ministry of Health to use a contact trick to develop their own contact tracing app that was a huge flop, abandoned a few months later.Avishai:
Just this week, it was announced that in the name of cutting the COVID pandemic, they were introducing legislation to allow the cyber defence directorate, to give them more extensive powers, in order to help companies, by going in sometimes even having the power to take over that private companies systems, in the name is trying to prevent these cyber attacks that we've been seeing. So, Israel has taken probably what I would say, has taken very very very far, steps, we will only be seeing the impacts of in years to come. When you look at it in that context, the green passport, that the Ministry of Health is trying to introduce is actually one of the less egregious infringement on the rights to privacy of Israeli citizens. So, I completely agree with you that it is problematic, that we should be able to receive from our health provider, we should be able to receive a accreditation that says that we got the vaccine that should allow us to travel there shouldn't be the need to create a centralised government database that has everyone's information in it, and is run by the government. Honestly, I wouldn't trust the government at this point, the Israeli government to run a gym membership, they've proven time and time again, that they cannot be trusted with this type of information, but again, going back to the examples that I brought it to beginning, I think that us Privacy Pros in Israel are very much focused on some of the other extremely aggressive steps that the government has taken in the name of war on the Coronavirus,Jamal:
that makes sense I guess you have to pick your battles wisely, and if you say this is one of the more less infringement on those civil liberties when it comes to the basic human right of the right to privacy, then I guess it is probably more interesting and more concerning to focus on some of the other ones. And you mentioned them Israeli failing as a government there and it's not just Israel alone I mean in the UK, we had our government try to build a centralised test and trace programme that wasted a lot of billions of pounds on that. We can't even keep a New Year's honours list safe so I don't understand how people think we're going to be able to keep a National Vaccine centralised Database safe or even running. We couldn't even keep hold of the COVID testing results we have a spreadsheet that you know stop recording at a certain amount of points, why we thought it was a good idea to do that I have no idea. So one of the things I think regardless of how much I'm opposed to it Avishai, is that these digital immunity passwords, I believe they're going to be inevitable. And so you shouldn't be trying to kind of combat and kind of campaign against it. I think moving forward. The next progression and the most pragmatic thing to do would be to say okay, look, if you're going to insist on bringing these into place, how can we make them a little bit more safer, how can we make it a little bit more acceptable. Do you have any suggestions for that?Avishai:
I agree with you 100%. I think the key thing with the track and trace example is a perfect example, that the government needs to understand and admit when it isn't the right entity potentially and doesn't have all of the necessary skills internally in order to develop this these systems, and one of the things that responsible governments have done is they brought in companies entities that specialise specifically in these areas to ensure that the technology works, that it's safe, that it's secure, that no one's information can leak. And so I think that definitely in terms of securing the information, the ministries of health around the world need to realise that they are not in the business of creating technology solutions, they're in the business of combating pandemics, they're extremely efficient at that, and they're wonderful, but when it comes to people's data. There are better and more appropriate players, people shouldn't take what I'm saying, as you know this stuff needs to be outsourced to private companies, not at all, but government needs to recognise when it needs to bring in the correct stakeholders to consult with privacy professionals to make sure that they've implemented data minimization principles and privacy by design principles and carried out, data protection impact assessments properly and consulted with security professionals to ensure that it's all secure, and it's only that joint efforts of the different people looking at this from their own specialisations that we will get the best result for the citizens.Jamal:
What you're saying is if Matt Hancock is listening, data privacy is something to be dealt with Privacy Professionals, experts that know what they're doing, its not your friends that you want to give big contracts to set up companies overnight. Got it. Exactly, exactly, there you go you'veAvishai:
translated it into. Yeah, You've said it outright Jamal I like it. And by the way, I just saw yesterday that Information Commissioner role is up for grabs, so Jamal are you throwing your hat in the ring for that role?Jamal:
I think I'm alright for now I wish I but I think you will definitely make a great candidate. Thank you very much. Thank you.Jamilla:
Back to a few questions about you Avishai. What would you say you're most proud of?Avishai:
in my professional life, I actually had three proud moments in the past year, I had three people reach out to me, to help them find jobs, and I was able to help them secure positions in their dream jobs in the area of data privacy that was probably in the past year, one of my few proudest moments, it's just so rewarding to be able to find someone, a, you know their dream position, And especially because we need excellent people in this field, and, and that was really a proud moment for me.Jamal:
That's amazing. That's amazing. And I think that's one of the things that we try to really do at the PrivacyPros Academy is empower people to become world class privacy professionals because there's such a huge demand for great people in the sector.Avishai:
Definitely, yeah, we need more people, if you're listening to this and you're interested in privacy, you need to reach out to Jamal, into the PrivacyPros Academy, get yourself trained and get into the business,Jamal:
On that note Avishai, there are some people who might be listening to this, they might have the mindset right now where they believe that all they need to do is read the book written by Eduardo, go and sit the exam pass it and they're going to become an absolutely sensational on privacy professional overnight. What do you say to those people who think, all they need to do is learn how to pass an exam rather than invest in training.Avishai:
There is no replacement for training but also for, for practical experience. I mean, there's a reason why when lawyers for example finish university, they have to sit for training contracts, because we realised that they built the base in law school, but then they need to go and have the practical experience, if they'd like to become solicitors, it's no different for any other profession. The great thing about the exam, is that it ensures that everyone is starting from the same level. Everyone has the very same basic level of understanding of the regulation, we're all talking the same language, we all know what convention one way it is and what GDPR is and the E privacy directive, and we all know, all of those regulations, laws and regulations, and now the implementation of that in practice, and the advice of that, and the translation of that practice is something that can only be perfected with experience and with time, build your way up with the experience, you know, that's how really you get to the higher echelons of the profession. I think it's especially true in an area like privacy, where, number one, things are changing all the time. So by the time you've set the exam. The law may have completely changed. You know they've been talking about it for a long time about the privacy regulation. Who knows when it's going to come into effect right, you know that's a completely new area to learn. And so the laws are always changing.Avishai:
But the other thing that's so interesting and important to understand about privacy, is that so much of it, so much of this profession is based on understanding the areas in which you're operating, and understanding the areas in which the businesses that you're advising are operating because your advice for example to a financial services provider won't be the same as your advice to a health services provider, or to a company that's building productivity software, it's a completely different area, and in each vertical of the business world, you mentioned government before that's a completely different areas, and so there's the art skills, the stuff that you learn in the books and you're tested on in the exams, but then there are really the soft skills of understanding how privacy, actually works in practice in the different areas in which you're advising, which is something that you can only learn when you've actually sat the and had the experience and given the advice and learned from the people around you, and you keep learning, by the way, I mean, I'm sure, Jamal, you'll agree with me that it doesn't matter how long you've been in this field, you keep learning every single day is learning you learn something new that you didn't necessarily know, and then it's another tool in your toolbox that you can implement, when you come acrossJamal:
it again. Absolutely, there's time, even when you think you know as much as there is to know when a certain topic, but then you go and work in a completely different industry, and you realise hang on a minute everything I thought I knew, I need to reassess because it doesn't make sense in this context, but I'm sure that you provided a, there's so much value in that. And I really want to thank you for really sharing your thoughts.Jamilla:
It's something that I found when I was doing a little bit of research on you was that you coach startups on data privacy issues, which I thought was really interesting. What kind of mistakes do you see that startups make when it comes to data privacy?Avishai:
So first of all, to give some context to that there's an amazing programme called Tech Stars. There are chapters all over the world, and I volunteer as a mentor in the Tel Aviv chapter, and it's an amazing experience because it's basically very very small startups, it's generally two or three founders and that's it, who come to this programme, and they have a two or three month programme I believe they have mentorship from different mentors from different sectors and from different backgrounds. So I come from a data privacy and law background, they'll have people there, who get marketing they'll work, help you work on your, your business pitch and all those different kinds of things, I think that the challenges that startups have is, you know, as, as any other company has, is it's a question of resources, right, financial resources, so do we have the money to spend on putting together a very robust privacy programme from the beginning. And there's financial consideration, but there's also time and effort and brain capacity to do this.Avishai:
I mean, when you're a two or three person startup, your entire focus from the moment that you get up in the morning until the moment that you go to sleep is on building this product company, whatever it is, and so you don't have time or you don't have the mental capacity to deal with everything else is a distraction. And so, the amazing thing about, you know what I do is that I come and I I plant the seeds of your building this product, you should make sure that you have, you know the key things that you need to remember in terms of your data programme is remember to make sure that everything is extremely secure, make sure you have policies so that you're transparent with people about how you use their data, you know, able to plant those seeds, as early on as possible and when you do it so early on, it pays dividends throughout the development of the company because then, even if they don't have the capacity or the bandwidth to deal with it, then they will know that when they come to speak to investors or they bring their product to market, they will know that these are issues that they need to think of because the worst thing is the unknown unknowns. Once something is known, and once it's able to be on their radar, then they can think about it and bring it to the fore when it's, when it's relevant, and, you know, oftentimes, I'll be contacted by companies that I've mentored in the past and they'll say, okay we remember what you told us you know x many months ago, now it's time to put pen to paper, and let's get it done. Those are some interesting challenges. The great thing by the way that working with startups, is that it's so exciting and so dynamic, and, you know, changes happen like this, you talk about like big corporates and it's difficult to make changes, you know, in a startup you can wake up one day and you know the company pivots and it's going in a completely different direction, so it's mind boggling sometimes how quickly these things move, but it is really exciting to work in that environment, because you can really have a major impact, giving this piece of advice at the right time putting in place this policy at the right time.Jamilla:
Sounds really amazing work very interesting. Yeah, it's really cool. What is the greatest challenge you have faced in your career and how did you overcome it. Oh,Avishai:
that is a, that's a, an interesting question, a tough one. This may be a good time to give a little bit of background about myself, because it feeds into this, to this question, I moved to Israel, when I was seven years old. I grew up here in Israel in Jerusalem, went to law school here, trained at one of the big, Israeli firms here in Israel, and really fell in love with the privacy space, I realised that if I wanted to have a career in privacy. The Israeli privacy framework, as I mentioned in one of my answers before isn't exactly what you would call the gold standard, but of global privacy and they were talking at the time about this you know this exciting GDPR that was coming into play and so I was looking around and I said to myself, well, I better go to a firm where I can, you know, practice this new, exciting gold standard of privacy, and so I found the, the head of Asserson, then I had a conversation and I said, well, I'd like to work for you because I'd like to practice, privacy law in the UK, which was been part of the EU so GDPR would have been applicable, and he said well that's really wonderful, obviously I, and you're a great guy.Avishai:
Unfortunately, we have two problems. The first problem is that you're an Israeli qualified lawyer and we only hire English lawyers, and the second problem is that we don't have a privacy department. And so I said to him. Okay, so I will qualify in the UK, and I will start your privacy department. And I think those were probably two of the most difficult things that I did so I, you know he was, he was a bit taken aback by my answer, but that's what I did, I joined Asserson, and I qualified as a UK and English solicitor. That was an extremely difficult thing to do, especially with a full time job. And then I basically started a privacy practice, as the newly qualified English solicitor or not newly qualified, Israeli one, basically from grounds up with nothing else around in the firm. So that was probably challenge, challenge number two in my professional world. So the first was the qualification and then building a practice really from, from the ground up, those were those were definitely two very, very difficult challenges.Jamal:
It's really inspiring Avishai how you didn't just take no for an answer, it was like you know what, no matter what, I'm gonna make this happen, and you had that mental resilience and that motivation within yourself to really go forward, but for anyone that's in a similar situation where they're challenged and maybe they've been told no or not yet. What advice to give them from that a self drive point of view?Avishai:
First of all, if you find something that you are passionate about, then you should hold on to that. I say grab onto that with two hands, and don't let go because I've spent a lot of time in my career in areas of, you know, practising law in areas that I wasn't passionate about. And it's tough. Once I found my love for privacy. It didn't become difficult anymore, it became an absolute pleasure to come to work, I love what I do and I don't consider it a job, I consider it a privilege, you know, advise clients on this area so if you find something that you love, and especially if privacy is something that you're passionate about, hold on to that and I think that definitely, if there are roadblocks in the way to where you want to be as they think about how you can get past those roadblocks, make a list even, what do you need to do, what do you need to achieve in order to break through those roadblocks and get to where you want to be identify where you want to be, and then work backwards from there, don't need to go back to a Marvel friends here, what is your end game? Okay, see what I did there. Your, what is your end game? Okay, when, and then work your way to how you're going to plot your way to how you're going to get there, and that's the advice that I would give. If there is anyone, any individual who you feel can help you get to where you want to be. Do not be afraid to reach out to that person and ask them for the assistance that you need in order to get there because they want to help you achieve what you want to achieve, it's so gratifying to be able to have done that for people and to continue to do that for people, and I promise you that you say to them, can you help me by doing X, Y and Z, they'll be more than happy to help you do that, and it will get you one step closer to where you want to be, so don't be afraid to chase those dreams, identify what they where you want to be, you need to reach out to in order to get there.Jamal:
Yeah, yeah, that is a really valuable advice Avishai and for anyone that's not a Marvel fan. What Avishai is saying is, begin with the end in mind. So begin with the end in mind. And his second super hot tip is, get yourself a mentor, someone who's already done what you're looking to achieve. Don't be afraid to speak to that mentor and to get them in place. And one of the things I'm really pleased to offer through the PrivacyPros Academy is our PrivacyPro Accelerator Mentoring programme, where we take individuals from where they are now they might have no experience, and at the end of 12 weeks really take them to the phase where they're engaged, and they can start let alone to accelerate career as a privacy professional so thank you for that Avishai valuable tips. Jamilla what's the next question that we have for Avishai?Jamilla:
our next question, and unfortunately, I can't think of a Marvel reference for this. So what do you think the data privacy industry will look like in five years?Avishai:
Wow, if I had a crystal ball, is what you're saying. I'm sure there are lots of other references for that one by the way, very good question. Obviously we don't have a crystal ball, but there are a number of indications. So, first and foremost we have to take a good hard look at what is happening right now around COVID. Think about what the world is going to look like for example international travel. Let's take that as one example, eventually we're going to go back to international travel. As we mentioned before, passports, that will certify whether you've been vaccinated or things around your health information might become more commonplace, so you know that's something that definitely is definitely worth thinking about. On the legislative we're seeing more and more countries adopt GDPR like legislation, which I think is an amazing achievement, obviously we saw it last year with CPRA that placed CCPA in California now Virginia and acting a new comprehensive data privacy law, we've seen it in India, we've seen it in New Zealand we've seen it in some other countries in Africa and in Asia, and I think we're definitely seeing on the legislative framework we're definitely seeing moves in that direction. We're seeing clashes, much more between big tech, and the regulators government slash regulators. We saw what happened a couple of weeks ago with Facebook the face off between Facebook and Australia, which, you know, which came to a head last week.Avishai:
So I definitely think that, you know, corporations, in general, but definitely tech, and definitely social media companies will have more and more of these types of clashes, we know that the US for example is thinking about changes to Section 230, which has to do with publishing content on social media, EU has also come out you know with the Digital Services Act, countries, and regulators come up against social media companies tech companies in general on the home front, I think, adequacy for the UK, it's how far along in the challenge process will max trends be to that adequacy decision in the court of justice. Yeah, that'll be that'll be one to watch. In all seriousness, I really think that the UK will eventually that adequacy decision seems inevitable to me, and the only question is going to be whether it will survive a judicial challenge that I think is where UK adequacy is heading. So I think there are a few examples, without much of a coherent answer but if I had to boil it down I would probably say, you know tech versus country's new legislative frameworks around the world. The UK status. Now that's kind of in limbo at the moment. And number four, would be which is the first thing that I mentioned is results that we see from COVID impacting privacy, going forward, other impacts that we may see going forward.Jamilla:
A lot to kind of look forward to or not in the future, and we are seeing some of these things, emerging like he said, Australia and Facebook and if we will see similar to what happened with the mass migration from WhatsApp to other apps whether we'll see more of that in the next few years, and have a few more Marvel movies, hopefully, fingers crossed. Amazing. What we've come to the end of that interview. Thank you Avishai for joining us today. I've definitely learned a lot from your wealth of experience and knowledge so thank you very much for joining us.Avishai:
Thank you guys very much for having me. And I really do appreciate both of you guys and, you know, tomorrow you also put amazing, amazing, amazing content out there, lots of great conversations I learned a ton from you personally Jamal and from the Kazient experts, generally, so please keep doing an amazing job at what you're doing, providing a huge amount of value both for myself and for the community in general.Jamal:
Thank you so much for your kind words and support Avishai, thanks guys.Rahena:
If you enjoyed this podcast, be sure to subscribe, like and share, so you're notified when a new episode is released. Remember toJamal:
join the PrivacyPros Academy Facebook group where we answer your questions.Rahena:
Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're leaving with some great things that will add value on a journey as a world class PrivacyPro,Jamal:
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or have a suggestion for a topic you'd like to hear more about, please send an emailRahena:
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