Intro: 00:01

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

Intro: 00:06

Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy experts. The podcast to launch, progress and explore sell your career as a privacy pro.

Intro: 00:17

Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of privacy.

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Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy

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Professionals, and hear real stories and top tips from the people who have been where you want to get to.

Intro: 00:32

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We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

Intro: 00:41

So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy or you are an experienced professional, this is the podcast for you.

Jamilla: 00:57

Hi, everyone, and welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast. My name is Jamilla, and I'm a data privacy analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislation as well as any key developments and decisions by supervisory authorities. With me today as my co-host is Jamal Ahmed, Fellow of Information Privacy and CEO at Kazient Privacy Experts. Jamal is an established and comprehensively qualified privacy professional with a demonstrable track record solving enterprise-wide data privacy and data security challenges for SMEs through complex global organisations. To date, he has provided privacy and GDPR compliance solutions to organisations across six continents and in 30 jurisdictions, helping to safeguard the personal data of over a billion data subjects worldwide. Hi, Jamal.

Jamal: 01:44

Hey, Jamila, good afternoon to you. How's it going?

Jamilla: 01:47

I'm good, how are you?

Jamal: 01:49

I'm super excited for our guest today. This guest, which you'll introduce in a minute, is someone that's been inspiring me on across LinkedIn and across all of the different places where you hear her speak. I think one of the questions I'm going to have is where do you actually get the energy from? Because I'm mesmerized. So without further ado, would you like to introduce our guest for today?

Jamilla: 02:09

Yes. Our guest today is Debbie Reynolds, aka the Data Diva. She's a world-renowned technologist, thought leader, and advisor handling global data privacy, cyber data risk, and complex, cross functional, data driven projects.

rivacy Experts by Martechvibe: 2021

Debbie: 03:11

Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here and I really appreciate the invitation.

Jamilla: 03:15

Very excited, and I'm a little bit nervous having a podcast host on our podcast, but this will be lots of fun.

Jamal: 03:22

I think it's amazing. I've been waiting for a long time to do a podcast with Debbie, and I'm so happy she made the time to join us. Debbie, first question is what inspires you?

Debbie: 03:34

on a book that I read in the: 1990

Jamal: 05:10

came across this book in the: 1990

Debbie: 05:26

Yeah, it's great. I really love it. I help businesses be able to navigate these business issues. I'm very passionate about rights of humans in terms of being able to protect their privacy. So being able to help businesses navigate that is something I'm really passionate about.

Jamal: 05:43

Fantastic. Now, Jamilla, I know this is going to be the ice breaker question that you use. All right, Jamila.

Jamilla: 05:56

We were just talking about books. So what was the last book you read, Debbie?

Debbie: 06:00

Oh, wow. Oh, God, I have to really think about that. I read a book by I think his name is Eric Baker. He wrote a famous book. I can't remember the name of it right now. He's like a Harvard researcher. He writes books that have a lot of statistics. He tries to break down, like myths versus kind of statistics and like, the conventional wisdom. So I like books like that, like freakonomics and things where they're talking about statistics and just posing them kind of real life situations.

Jamilla: 06:33

Do you think if you weren't in data privacy, you'd be a statistician? I always struggle with that word.

Debbie: 06:39

Maybe I love statistics. I have The Economist, I don't know if they still do it, but they have a book of statistics that came out every year and my friends will always give me the book because they knew that I love it.

Jamilla: 06:53

Jamal, what was the last book you read?

Jamal: 06:55

The last book I read? I was actually thinking that's coming up is it was actually a marketing book, which I don't have here on my shelf right now, but it was all about the tipping point. It's not the book on the tipping point, it's a marketing book about the tipping point. I can't remember the name of it, but if I find it, I'll share it with you. Jamilla. But it was really the book, and it really talks about perseverance and how we just must be consistent in our efforts. We must keep an eye on the goal and we shouldn't give up any cost. And as long as you do one thing a day towards your goals and you're on the right track. And that actually brings me into a nice question I have for you, Debbie, is whenever I’m on your LinkedIn, whenever I you speak, you always have this energy and you always going at 100 mph, or it looks like you're going at 100 mph, how is it that you find the energy to keep going? And what drives this fierce passion that you have?

Debbie: 07:48

Yeah, I have a passion for learning. I'm just extremely curious. I do tons of research just on my own. I have done it. I'm a geek, so when no one cared about privacy, I was researching and reading, and I read lots of journals and studies and stuff like that and have extensive reading lists. And for me, it seems like I'm on LinkedIn all the time. I put a lot of content out, but I do a lot of content in batches, and then I sort of put it out on a regular schedule. But you have to have energy to be able to communicate this. If I wasn't interested in it, I don't think it would come across as well. So I try to make it interesting, I try to make it actionable because I want people to have something that they can implement or learn from and use right away.

Jamal: 08:40

privacy podcast worldwide in: 2021

Debbie: 08:59

Oh, wow, that's a hard question. Probably my favourite guest, her name is Karen Bright, she is from an organization called Understanding Identity, and her and I work together with an organization in the UK called Women in Identity. And the reason why she's probably my favourite guest is because she's not a privacy person. So I think if you're constantly all talking to privacy people, it's kind of the same conversation. So for me, being able to talk to someone who wasn't in privacy was so much fun, and she brought such a human element to it. She talked about people who are underrepresented, just real life.

Jamilla: 09:43

I was going to ask who your least favourite guest is, but I don't think we should get into that.

Jamal: 09:47

We can't ask. All right. So Debbie, for people who are listening, they love listening to this podcast, and if they're into data privacy, they're going to get so much value from listening to your podcast as well. How can they find your podcast and what platforms can they access it on?

Debbie: 10:05

Yes. So you can always go to my website, debbiereynoldsconsulting.com, and I have a podcast page and have all my podcasts on there. Also, the podcast is on 15 or 20, all the major podcast directories. So it's on ITunes, on Spotify, Amazon, Alexa, everything. So just type in the Data Diva Talks Privacy podcast, and it should pop up on any directory.

Jamal: 10:35

All right, great. So we've got the Data Diva Talks so on any platform you enjoy listening, make sure once you finish this episode, you go right down and you subscribe and you listen, and you really get the value and the benefit from listening to Debbie's podcast as well. Jamilla, over to you.

Jamilla: 10:50

I was also looking, Debbie, at some of the other talks you've done, and I was looking at your piece on drones and data privacy, which I thought was really interesting, kind of the new ways that data privacy is having to develop around technology as technology kind of developed. So what advice would you give to privacy professionals about how to stay relevant in the field with so much new kind of new challenges, I guess, around privacy coming out every single day?

Debbie: 11:19

Yeah, well, my best advice people want to stay ahead and stay current is to watch the technology and not necessarily the regulations. So the regulations are reactive mostly. So, like, something happens and regulation comes out. But if you're looking at the technology as is emerging and think about what the privacy implications may be, it will help you be prepared for when you have a situation where you have to think about drones or different emerging technologies. So definitely look at the technology. People who are developing technology unfortunately aren't typically thinking about privacy or don't have privacy in mind. So we just have to be more vigilant in terms of looking out there. When a new phone comes out or a new wacky technology comes out, you're like, oh, my goodness, that could be bad. Or here are the privacy applications I think will come up there. So for me, that's helped me a lot. So people are like, oh, how did you guess? It's like, well, I looked at this thing that came out and I thought, oh, this could be an issue.

Jamilla: 12:28

Yeah, it's really interesting with the drones. It's something I've never, obviously I've seen them a lot, and I've got friends that use drones for photography purposes, but I've never thought of the privacy kind of implications of it. It's really interesting.

Jamal: 12:44

It is super interesting. And the top tip there from Debbie is basically when the technology comes out. Have a look at the technology, but have your privacy cap on, have your privacy lense on, and that should help you really identify what could potentially go wrong and how we can counteract against that. And just because these technology companies or these engineers are developing things doesn't necessarily mean that they've been doing it with privacy in mind and following the actual privacy by design and default that we'd love to see. And one of the things that we teach at the Privacy Pro Academy is the IAPP officially certified CIPT program, which is specifically for privacy technologists. And it talks about privacy engineering and it really looks at understanding what some of those risks are at the beginning before we even start designing anything, and how the engineering of that can actually be focused thinking of all of the different privacy harms. And it’s a really fascinating course that I love teaching all of the time. And for anyone that's interested in technology and how that relates to privacy, I would recommend you definitely have a look at the course. Debbie, how important are certifications? How important is it to constantly invest in your own professional development to really do well in the industry as a privacy professional?

Debbie: 13:55

Yeah, I think it is always good. Regardless of how you decide to invest in your continuing education, it's important that you have that. So privacy is not a static issue. As these new emergency technologies come out, it changes every day. There are new laws and regulations. I think this is a very exciting time to be in privacy. And I think especially from a regulation perspective, I know people who are in certain areas of law that don't change a lot. It may not change in ten or 20 years where it seems like every day is like a new law, new regulation that you have to think about. So I think being able to find ways to find some ways that you can develop professionally, whether it be certifications or classes or reading, definitely reading in some way. And if you feel compelled to do certifications, I think that's a good idea as well.

Jamal: 14:56

Awesome. Thank you for sharing. So the key message is keep reading, keep learning, and keep absorbing like a sponge. And doesn't matter which method you choose or how you choose to develop yourself, just make sure that you are always soaking in that information in whichever format you prefer.

Debbie: 15:12

Correct. And I know, you know, Jamal, if you talk to someone within a minute or so, you can tell whether they know what they're talking about. So it's not hard to figure out who has the goods or who doesn't. So it's great to have those conversations with people.

Jamal: 15:28

Absolutely. Speaking about drones, it just reminds me actually, two stories. The first story is a family member actually booked a venue to get married at and one of the strange things that they were told at the time of booking was you can't use any drones to capture your big day because our neighbours complained. And I was like, you know, that's super interesting because I'm sure they are people who are trying to enjoy Sunday afternoon, typically when Asian weddings happen here in the UK. They're probably out and about in the garden and the last thing they want is drones coming in and capturing that private time that they're trying to enjoy with their family life. And the second thing is actually during lockdown, a lot of the enforcement and detection of people breaching those regulations was carried out by drones here in the UK. Did you guys have anything like that in the US?

Debbie: 16:18

We didn't, that I am aware of, but I know that there are a lot of countries that actually did use drones for enforcement. So sending messages, making photographs of people who weren't compliant, trying to clear certain areas, definitely something I think is going to be on the rise. I haven't seen it here yet, but that doesn't mean it won't happen.

Jamilla: 16:38

You mentioned the US a bit there, Debbie. Where do you think the US is going in terms of data privacy? Are there things that are being introduced at a federal level or is it still quite kind of states decide what they want to do?

Debbie: 16:51

It’s very timely conversation there's kind of this battle, it's not really a battle. It's talk mostly about what people want to do about privacy on the state or federal level. But in terms of what's actually occurred up to this point, the states have been tremendously active on privacy in different states in the US and I think that's going to continue. There's proposal now at a federal level and there have been many different proposals that have been tried and nothing happened. We're going to see what's going to happen with this current proposal. A lot of people like me are sort of doubtful that this is going to go anywhere, mostly because it was introduced at the last minute and in election year. So I don't know how there are very many legislative days left, maybe it will pass, maybe not. But I still feel deeply that the states seem to have taken a better approach to privacy where the states are really interested in it. They kind of work with it over time and try to build up privacy where I think it's almost impossible to do it where you just kind of come up with something and hope it passes at the last minute. It takes time to develop this, it takes time to get agreement on all this stuff so these things don't happen overnight. So I think slow and steady wins the race as opposed to trying to make a sprint or mad dash finish line.

Jamilla: 18:24

Do you think that there is a need for something at a federal level as opposed to just state by state?

Debbie: 18:32

Yes, I do think there's a need. I think the two things in the US that have hampered federal level privacy legislation, in my view, have been the notion that the federal law pre-empts what's happening at the state level, and it's been a lot happening at state level. And then corporations and companies, they don't want to see a federal privacy law that has a private right of action, meaning that people can sue as a result of any particular harm. So those are the two key sticking points. So in my view, in order to get something at a federal level, it has to be like super thin, like very watered down to get everyone to agree. And I almost feel like they should for a first pass, they should probably take out private right of action and pre-emption completely and maybe focus on harmonizing the definitions and the notification period and the requirements across the federal level.

Jamal: 19:34

Yeah, I think a lot of people from different parts of the world outside of the US actually fail to appreciate how much of a political challenge it can be bringing this privacy law. It's not that people are saying, no, we don't care about privacy, we don't want privacy station yes we do. But getting the political players to all agree to something, that's the real challenge, isn't it?

Debbie: 19:58

Oh, absolutely right. So as you can see, things are very divided here. Not a lot of agreement on stuff. Historically, over the last ten years or so, congress hasn't passed very many laws or bills, so it's hard to get that type of agreement and to do these huge omnibus bills in the US. It's just extremely hard to do. That's why I feel like the states have taken over, because it's easier to pass these laws out of state by state level as opposed to a federal level.

Jamal: 20:37

e some proposals in September: 2001

Debbie: 20:56

I'm glanced at it and I'm a bit concerned about this. I think it took so long for the UK to get adequacy from the EU after Brexit, and I was breathing a sigh of relief, especially because I'm hoping to see more harmonization with these regulations and not like a lot of different ones, even though obviously, post Brexit, UK can do whatever they want, right? But I think being able to get people on board with the laws as they stand now is probably the best solution, as opposed to trying to change it once people get used to it in a certain way. So I think proposals that change fundamental things that may make it harder for the UK to comply with other jurisdictions, especially you know, you share a land border with the EU. So I think having more harmonization there would create less uncertainty, I think, for people, and less confusion in a way.

Jamal: 22:02

The ironic thing is the UK is calling Data, a new direction. For me, it's data in the wrong direction, because on the one hand, we see countries, states all over the world and even individuals all over the world, moving in one direction, which is towards a more pro privacy, more comprehensive GDPR type approach. And on the other hand, you got UK here saying, Hey we didn't get any benefits from Brexit. So we're going to try this and we're going to say look, we're not going to care about GDPR, we're going to wash down everybody's rights, we're going to wash down all of the responsibilities. We're going to say, you can send data wherever you want to do it, we don't really care about that. And that's going to increase business in the UK. But what they fail to think about is actually, if you do that, how long is it going to take for the EU to say the UK is no longer adequate and how much is it actually going to cost the UK economy? And I don't think the politicians that we have here have actually thought about that. And the other challenge I see is what they're saying is that the regulator that we have here, they're saying that there should be more of a political influence on who sits in the kind of decisions they make. And for me, I see fundamental problems with the rule of law and the separation of powers here, and I see it becoming very convoluted. And I'm actually very worried about the future of privacy rights in the UK, because if you look at the Council of Europe, and if you look at the declaration of human rights, the rights that we signed up for post, the atrocities that we saw after World War Two, it was there to make sure that none of those atrocities happened again. And we've had guests like Lydia Knab come on to this podcast, fleeing countries, because they value their freedom and their right privacy, and where the UK is trying to take us, I'm very concerned about this, and I think it’s very dangerous territory that we're going down, and I genuinely am concerned about future generations and what this government is going to do by ripping out people's rights. As somebody outside of the UK looking in, what are your thoughts on where the UK is going politically right now?

Debbie: 24:12

Yeah, I'm concerned, very concerned as you say the world is moving towards more rights, not less. And I think people in my view, if people want to do business in the UK, they're going to follow the rules. So I don't think it's stopping anyone from doing business with the UK. In my opinion. I don't think it's really stopping companies from doing business in Europe, so I don't see that as being an impediment for business. I hope it doesn't make the UK kind of a safe haven for people who don't want to care about privacy. I think at some point, the UK is in a very unique situation where you're sort of in the middle. So obviously I have very deep ties to the US and we don't have as deep of a framework around privacy at a federal level that the UK has or the EU has, and built that over decades, right? So trying to make that huge change and shift in a time when everyone's going in the opposite direction, I think it's problematic. And I guess I have the same feeling that I did about Brexit in a way, because a lot of the issues that companies had with Brexit wasn't about whether they should leave the EU or not, it was creating uncertainty. So the uncertainty, I feel, was like, probably you tell me whether you think I'm wrong, but from my perspective, it was probably the one of the most damaging things that happened with the UK because people who wanted to invest, weren’t sure whether they should do it or not. So I think when the adequacy thing came around, even though whether people like GDPR or not, they breathe a sigh of relief because they're like, okay, well, if everything is going to hell in other countries, at least we have an idea. We know generally what the framework is in Europe and how even countries like Switzerland who aren't in the EU, there are a lot of similarities to your laws. Right? So making the UK more dissimilar than other countries in Europe, I think it could be a problem with investment because people aren't sure what direction they are going in.

Jamal: 26:41

I think I completely agree with you. It actually makes no sense and it's definitely moving the wrong direction. Jamilla you are very passionate about giving back. You're very passionate about people's lives. You are always helping the people who I feel like maybe a little bit more vulnerable in society. What's your take on this?

Jamilla: 26:59

Where I've seen kind of people's rights kind of being exploited, because I do a lot of work, obviously, in mental health, and that's kind of my thing. And I think people are having to give away sensitive health information, particularly in regards to mental health, particularly having an effect on people of colour, especially when they give away that information, they're expecting that information to be safe. They're being then referred to Prevent, or they're being referred to the police at higher rates than the white population. They're being seen as unstable they're being seen as a risk when what they really need is help because they're vulnerable rather than interference by the police, or police shouldn't be responding to mental illness, kind of. And I know I've gone off on a little bit of a tangent, but Jamal asked.

Jamal: 28:01

Thank you for sharing with Jamilla. It's always fascinating to get an insight from you because you're right, that should not be happening. When someone's got medical information and just because they have certain traits that they're from another part of the world or they have different ethnic origins, why should they then be referred to the police? And you also mentioned Prevent for people who don't know what Prevent is. Do you want to elaborate a little bit more on that?

Jamilla: 28:26

So Prevent is a program which was designed to focus on extremism. It encourages people like teachers, doctors, anyone in kind of a position of responsibility to refer someone who they think is at risk of extremism. And it's supposed to be all kinds of extremism, but we found that it unfairly targets Muslims. So, for example, there was, I think, a three-year-old boy in nursery school who was trying to write the word cucumber and wrote cooker bomb. And he was referred, him and his family were referred to Prevent, which means social services were involved and all these kinds of things were involved. And it's just ridiculous. And when it comes to mental health and people being referred to Prevent because of their mental health. Or even being referred to the police. When it's not a life-or-death situation when it's very different when there's what you always have to say is that we will contact someone if I think there's a risk to your safety or other people's safety. But when it's just people disclosing that they've got a mental illness. It's not really fair that the police then are called.

Debbie: 29:45

Yeah.

Jamal: 29:47

It doesn't make any sense. Just going back to this Prevent program. So for everyone listening to us that is not familiar with Prevent, it's largely seen by the general public as a very racist policy and a program that was introduced by the government. And it's unfairly picking on a certain minority. And the other thing with this program is I remember there was one incident where there was a child in a school who happened to be from a BAME background and he drew some pictures of his houses and he wrote, I live in a terrorist house. But the guy didn't know how to spell terrace and I think he ended up saying, I live in a terrorist house. The word was close to terrorists, and he was reported to Prevent. And they had law enforcement interfering with the whole family and monitoring them just because of a picture a child drew at school and got the word terrace wrong and wrote terrorists instead. You can't make stuff up, can you?

Debbie: 30:41

It's crazy. I mean, we're having that as well in the US. And I'm concerned about AI and data collection and people having computers or having technology systems compound the type of harm that can happen to people. So having that bias and that discrimination and systems that work a hundred or a million times faster than things we use today, I think it's very concerning.

Jamal: 31:13

Absolutely. I couldn't agree with you. Now let's change the level of energy because it's been a little bit down. Let's pick it back up. Debbie, you are recognized as one of the women who knows cyber, stellar women in cybersecurity. How can we encourage more women to get into what is typically a male dominated field?

Debbie: 31:31

Yeah, I hope we all have an interest in our own protection of data. So I think women should seek out those careers, seek out mentors. Some of my best mentors have been men. So I think being able to find mentors, find people on LinkedIn, I think it's important to be able to research. And plus, cyber is such a huge domain. It's so many different areas of cyber. I feel like cyber is very misunderstood, where I think when you're, for example, someone tells you a doctor, you don't assume that they know everything about medicine. Right. You say, oh, what type of doctor are you? So for some reason with cyber, even privacy, they think you know everything about cyber and there are so many different areas. So I think people are interested in those careers. Find a domain within cyber or even privacy that interests you the most and then specialize there.

Jamilla: 32:35

Do you think that there's a need for women especially to be getting involved in technology subjects more broadly at a younger age so that they're on the right career path?

Debbie: 32:47

Absolutely. I think kids now, I saw a kid looking at a phone and going through a Netflix menu at like four or five years old, and they found stuff that I wouldn't be able to find as I felt. I think that because so much of what we deal with is digital, I think that that's going to move more people into that area where, when I started my technology career, this is before people had email, this is before people have computers at work, it's just bananas. So you have to make a conscious choice that you wanted to do that and there weren't a lot of avenues, but I think now, the way the Internet is, there's so many resources that people can go out and learn and figure out what they want to do. And it's not a one size fit all type of thing. So there are just many different domains. We need many people, many women, people of colour in technology fields. Absolutely.

Jamal: 33:56

You mentioned a little bit about your career there. What some of the biggest challenges you face breaking into the data privacy? How have you overcome those?

Debbie: 34:06

I don't think I had a chance to break in because no one was in. Right. I had to break in.

Jamal: 34:13

You led away.

Debbie: 34:15

Yeah, I was just kind of started when people got interested in it. I knew I had corporations that knew me from other work who called me up, like really big companies like McDonald's Corporation called me and I talked to them. I teach a lot of lawyers about data. It was kind of like developing around me in some ways, so I don't really have to break in. But I think now someone I think that the privacy has become its own domain and I think people who want to break in it's still early yet, so still kind of new in terms of, in my view, like an established discipline that people go into because there are now colleges trying to teach degrees in this and that wasn't the case before. So I think being able to, at this point, stay aware, things are still developing. You have to keep your knowledge fresh about what's happening in the world and just read a lot, I would say. I think that those are really important things to do.

Jamal: 35:19

I think that's been the recurring message you've been giving throughout this podcast and all the other places you speak, is we always talk about how we should always be making sure that we're in the know and by constantly reading and reading and learning and absorbing the information. So I guess that's one of your top tips for success is make sure that you're always up to date in a way. And you can do that by reading and soaking up all of the different things like a sponge.

Debbie: 35:43

Yeah. And figure out I think even though we have interest in privacy, we don't do exactly the same things, right? So we can definitely support each other and things like that. You've done a lot with your community building, Jamal. This is really important. But I think the people who really interest me are the ones who figure out how to specialize, like how to take something they already know and add it into privacy. So, like, I'm a technologist and then I also got into privacy, so that makes me a bit different than other people. So I think if you have a natural interest in any kind of data field and you can add privacy to it, it will just make you that much more unique.

Jamal: 36:26

So what you're saying is find something that you're super interested and passionate about and then see how that intersects with privacy and that would really help you to stand out from the competition and really build a brand for yourself and lead the way in that specific domain where you found that section.

Debbie: 36:41

Absolutely.

Jamal: 36:43

That's a super top tip. And I think anyone needs to send you some rewards for that because that is priceless, that is like the secret to any one who really wants to lead the way or pioneer the way in any industry is find something that you're super passionate about and then see how that intersects with something that is actually a big business problem, and you can only do really well going from there.

Debbie: 37:07

Yeah. Privacy touches everything. Data touches everything. So we need more people. I want to see more people in privacy to come from these other domains that you would never even think about. Right. I want to see more people in banking, finance, business, intelligence, all that. I want to see all those people in privacy.

Jamilla: 37:27

Debbie, what do you look for when you're hiring in the industry? What do you think hiring managers are looking for when they're hiring in privacy?

Debbie: 37:35

I personally look for people who are really passionate, truly are interested in it, because it's not the most sexy topic. It can be very boring at times. So if you don't have a natural interest, it would be hard for you to stay sort of alert and aware. And then for me, the most important thing is curiosity. So are you curious about what's happening in the world? Are you curious about these regulations, or do you have a self interest in it? I think that curiosity really drives people. So even Jamal and his work, I know that you wouldn't be able to do what you're doing if you didn't have a passion for it.

Jamal: 38:13

Yes, absolutely. And I think that curiosity really starts off with the quality of the questions you ask and the quality of the questions you ask yourself. And one of my mentors told me that the more powerful the questions you ask yourself and the more curious you get, the better you're going to show up in the world, the better you're going to get an opportunity to serve. And that's really what it's about, is getting curious about how you can come up show up better, and how you can serve better and how you can make a real difference.

Debbie: 38:42

Exactly. I agree.

Jamilla: 38:44

Last question for you, Debbie. What is your most memorable client story you can share that we don't have to edit out?

Debbie: 38:51

Yeah, this is interesting. A company was developing technology around COVID stuff, so they wanted to be able to sanitize rooms with machines that are at schools or whatever. And one of the developers, he's like, yeah, we should put this UV thing at the doorways and, like, zap people with UV when they walk in. And I'm like, you can't zap people with UV. Okay. In school, you can't zap people. I was like, no, I can see where he was going. He was trying to be helpful, but I'm like, no, you can't do that. You can do room sanitation, yes, but not people sanitation.

Jamal: 39:49

Sanitation of entry.

Debbie: 39:51

Yes.

Jamilla: 39:58

I think we're going to look back in 15 years and be like, covid was a strange time.

Debbie: 40:04

Oh, absolutely. Everything just ran together. It got crazy. But, yeah, he was really excited. He was not happy. When I told him, we can't do that.

Jamilla: 40:16

Well, that made us laugh. And that's a great way to end the podcast. Thank you so much, Debbie. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast.

Debbie: 40:26

Well, thank you. It's been a pleasure being here. I really love your show and keep up the great work.

Jamal: 40:32

Thank you, Debbie. And I'm so grateful that we got the chance to have a conversation. I look forward to having more interesting conversations with you.

Debbie: 40:41

Absolutely happy to be there.

Outro: 40:45

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Outro: 40:53

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Outro: 40:58

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Outro: 41:05

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Outro: 41:06

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Outro: 41:11

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Outro: 41:15

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Outro: 41:19

Until next time, peace be with you. Bye.