Intro: 00:02

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place.

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Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. A podcast to launch, progress, and excel your career as a privacy pro.

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Hear about the latest news and developments in the world of Privacy.

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Discover fascinating insights from a leading global privacy professional.

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And hear real stories, and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to.

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We're an official IAPP training partner.

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We've trained people in over 137 countries and counting.

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So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy.

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Or you're an experienced professional.

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This is the podcast for you.

Jamilla: 00:58

Hi everyone and welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast, my name is Jamilla, and I'm a data privacy analyst at Kazient Privacy Experts. I'm primarily responsible for conducting research on current and upcoming legislations, as well as any key developments in decisions by supervisory authorities. With me today is my co host, Jamal Ahmed, who is a fellow of information privacy and CEO at Kazient Privacy Experts. Jamal is an established and comprehensively qualified privacy professional with a demonstrable track record solving enterprise wide data privacy and data security challenges for SMEs to complex global organizations. He is a revered global privacy thought leader, world class trainer, and published author for publications such as Thomson Reuters, Independent, Euronews, as well as numerous industry publications. He makes regular appearances in the media, and has been dubbed the King of GDPR by the BBC. Today he has provided privacy and GDPR compliance solutions to organizations across six continents, and in over 30 jurisdictions, helping to safeguard the personal data of over a billion data subjects worldwide. Hi Jamal!

Jamal: 02:08

Hi, Jamila, how are you today?

Jamilla: 02:09

I'm good. I'm excited for this podcast.

Jamal: 02:12

Yes, and I want to let our listeners into a little secret. Jamilla was almost not going to attend the podcast because she cooked some chicken and she wasn't sure if she cooked it properly or not. So we're hoping that everything goes well for Jamila over the course of the next hour.

Jamilla: 02:25

Right. Let's introduce our guest today. Maria Hosken is a Brazilian legal professional specializing in data protection and privacy. She is currently a data privacy consultant at UnitedHealth Group, Brazil and co-chair of the IAPP in Rio de Janeiro and an LLM in Law. Maria also holds a certificate in intellectual property and innovation from the Brazilian National Institute of Industrial Property. She is also a published writer, screenplay author and director and teaches IP at FGV and privacy fundamentals at privacy Academy. Welcome Maria. That's quite a bio.

Maria: 03:01

Thank you, Jamilla! Hello, how are you?

Jamilla: 03:04

Good. Thank you. So we always start off in the privacy podcast with an icebreaker question. So what are you going to do when you retire?

Maria: 03:11

Sleep.

Jamal: 03:13

And what's keeping you up? Is it the fear of privacy of your clients, or is it balancing privacy with being a parent?

Maria: 03:20

Yeah, I have a little baby. She's 10 months old, and I can say that in order to be kept up late at night, privacy goes way way ahead. She's a nice girl. She sleeps at night. Privacy never stops. Even when you're resting, you have that in your mind, every time. So yeah, privacy is more concerning than my baby for me these days.

Jamilla: 03:44

So privacy is more like another baby for you. And could you tell us a bit more about what data protection and data privacy is like in Brazil? What kind of legislation do you have?

Maria: 03:54

data protection law since the: 1990

Jamal: 05:49

going to send from that is in: 2018

Maria: 06:24

Exactly. In this sense. GDPR was a breaking mold. It became a paradigm and became the parameters to our law. So it is deeply inspired by the GDPR rules. And of course, we park it this way to see privacy. So we have a very Eurocentric view of data protection.

Jamilla: 06:34

So how did, you said, you mentioned it was a very kind of sharp law. There wasn't a lot of preparation necessarily. How did ordinary people not in data protection react to the changes in the law? Did it affect them?

Maria: 07:01

I'd say that the greatest impact was on companies, data controllers. I mean, the general public, they have a natural curiosity about this law. But there is a lot of confusion, a lot of wrongs understanding what the law is about. So I think all the concern, even because of the sanctions, because of GDPR, lgpd put a lot of pressure on companies because of the sanctions that the community sanction. So I think companies are really taking this seriously the ones that are not should be but in general, people are curious about this law. I think it's an open field to educate people about this in Brazil.

Jamilla: 07:45

Alright! And What first got you interested in data privacy?

Maria: 07:49

as a legal consultant and by: 2016

Jamal: 08:37

saying. I think it was around: 2016

Maria: 09:30

Now as you said beginning in: 2018

Jamal: 10:13

Yeah, great. It sounds like it's a very hot market anywhere in the world, which means that if you're listening and you want a career in data privacy, if you're aspiring privacy Pro and you want to pivot your career, there has never been a better time to get into data privacy. And if you're already in data privacy and you're looking to have a thriving career, then Maria's gonna share some tips so make sure you carry on listening to hear about those top tips to how to really have a thriving career in data privacy. One thing I'm really curious about Maria is you're one of the chairs of the Brazilian chapter of the IAPP and we're an official IAPP training partner. And we're always talking about the value of having this network and being a member of the IAPP. Why don't you tell us a little bit more from your perspective of the chair as to why having that membership is so valuable?

Maria: 11:01

Yes, of course. So when I started to study about privacy, 2 websites became my kind of knowledge. One was the ICO site. I think it's a wonderful site, if you want information about privacy and data protection, and the other one was the IAPP. So it didn't take too long for me to get the membership of this association. It was really important and it is still to have access to all the material, the posts and the share. So I became very close with this network about the knowledge, and so they had this departure for a happy hour. So you can know other privacy pros to talk about it. And I started to attend these meetings, and made a lot of good friends there. I was recommended to be an IAPP Co. chair here in Rio and this network part, I think it's wonderful. So we have this meeting. educational ones and social ones, and the other one is certification. So now IAPP here in Brazil is starting up to certification to be a DPO here in the lgpd law and it's wonderful to have this kind of engagement with such an important association with this privacy law here. So I think that's the certification besides recognizing a very high level of understanding the privacy concepts and the privacy law. It is a very highly estimated document if you want to understand that in the market. So it's highly recommendable.

Jamal: 12:39

Thank you for sharing that. Yes. And I think some of the things that I really value from especially when I first started my career was networking with other privacy professionals and finding mentors and saying, Hey, I'm thinking about this in this way, but I don't even know what I don't know about. What can you tell me? And how do they see things in your industry? Because not everybody has this across all industries, right? But there are privacy pros that come to these networking events that you can actually access who have experience in the different sectors and sometimes the way another industry approaches the same thing is actually really fascinating. And you can learn a lot from that. And that's what I find and that's reason why I actively make sure I increase and participate in making sure make the most of my privacy peers is because everyone brings something valuable to the table from their previous experience, from the industry experience, from the upbringing, from that culture, from whichever part of the world they're in. And you bring all of those things, you can actually deliver greater solutions for all of your clients and make sure that you're actually helping them to uphold those rights and those civil rights and liberties that people also do when it comes to privacy. They're certainly trying to change careers and move into privacy. If you don't have CIPP/E or the CIPM, at least the CIPP/E is seen as the gold standard in data privacy for any employment hiring manager and any recruiter and I know there are a lot of people that actually are a little bit upset about that because they haven't set those certifications themselves. Like why should that be the door to entry, but because the IAAP does such a great job. They do such a phenomenal job making sure they go out there making sure they speak to the CEOs of massive companies, they've set the bar and the CIPP/E is the bar for anyone who wants to be a credible, confident and authority of privacy professional and in my experience and from the people that we see in the academy and from the people that we come across are having challenges. Some people just learn how to pass an exam, but that's not enough to go and get a career and have a really thriving career where you can, you know, move towards earning six figures. You need to understand how to apply that and the only way to really learn how it all applies is to have a mentor and have someone actually teach you based on your experience because when you're reading the book you don't even know what it is that you don't know. What's your take on that? And why is it important to have a mentor?

Maria: 14:48

So I can say for me how it is important .For me It's very important to not lose yourself in the 1 million things you have to do. I think it's valuable in any sense if you want to accelerate your privacy knowledge.

Jamal: 15:05

Absolutely, amazing. Thank you for sharing. And so one of the strong values that we have that we try to really impart in the privacy pros Academy is the value of having a mentor. Having someone guide you and show you and explain things to you and not just into academics. But how does all this apply in practice? Because, yes, you can just focus on academics to maybe write an article or to pass an exam. But then if you want to go and get a career out of this and you want to do a great job for your clients or for your employer, then you can mutually understand the application and you said privacy mindset is super important. And that's one of the things that we teach them in the privacy pros accelerator program. One of the five pillars is the mindset. What is the mindset of a privacy professional and really help our mentees on that program to get the right mindset so they have that strong pillar and they can attack everything with that privacy pro mindset. So thank you very much for sharing that, Maria.

Maria: 15:59

Thank you.

Jamilla: 15:59

What is your favourite client story or project or a memorable moment that you've got from working with a client in privacy?

Maria: 16:10

ivacy by design at the end of: 2018

Jamilla: 17:23

That's great. And especially seeing a company then so small and caring about data privacy. Yeah, that's really great.

Jamal: 17:31

Yes, thank you. Thank you for sharing your stories with us, Maria. Now the question I have for you is, you're someone who's gone from the start of privacy law to now, you know, having a really thriving career where you're kind of the go to person in Brazil when it comes to all things data privacy, right. What advice do you have for someone who is looking or seeking a thriving career in data privacy apart from what you've already mentioned like get yourself a mentor and attain the IAPP certifications. Apart from those two key things. What other advice would you give someone who really wants to have a thriving career in data privacy?

Maria: 18:06

I'd say do it because you love it. Don't get too excited with the gold rush or to just focus on the monetary gains you can have because it's a new field of law here in Brazil. Do it because you really like the topic because you care about privacy and if you are passionate about it, because once you are passionate about something, it's gonna be a pleasure or less painful to pass through all the process of study and becoming a professional.

Jamal: 18:39

Okay, that's really important advice. And yeah, I do speak to people every day who say hey, I want to become a privacy professional. What do I need to do? I say, yeah, and I say why do you want that? They're like that because I want to earn X amount of money as well. That's the reason because you could exit. Come on, am I doing something else? What do you know about data privacy? Have you looked at the GDPR? And sometimes it's very clear that they haven't other times like yes, I read the GDPR. I look at all these certifications. I've actually subscribed to be a member of the IAPP and you can see that they really just need someone to push them in the right direction. And what you said there is of paramount importance. Yes, as a privacy professional, you can earn some really attractive sums of money and you will be rewarded accordingly. But it's not enough to say you want to carry in data privacy because unless you're really passionate about something, it's always going to be a lot of hard work. And as Maria said, you'd like when you wake up in the morning, you want to wake up like yes, I've got to go to work and I'm going to have another great day. And I think Jamila, one of the things that you mentioned in a previous podcast is if you do what you love then, you never have to go to work.

Jamilla: 19:44

Yeah, I think there was a phrase: if you find a job you love you never work a day in your life.

Jamal: 19:51

What do you love so much about it?

Maria: 19:53

You do enjoy studying. I don't know how to explain what I love?!

Jamal: 20:00

I think I'm gonna help you out a little bit here. What I love is the challenge that no two days are the same like for me no two days I've ever been the same and everyday you come up with a new challenge. And even when you think you know an area, you know a business, you know a client very well and you know all the risks, something always comes up just the minute you think it's okay to relax and a whole new challenge. And then you have to go and learn about it. And every day there is some kind of new enforcement action, there is some kind of new advice being issued. There's a new country with a new regulation or some other law that's impacting privacy, and you always have to be on your toes and you have to make sure that you're upskilling yourself. You're learning about it. Artificial intelligence, we can see that the new regulations coming into that intimate you're on top of all of those things, and for me that's what makes it so fascinating is so fast paced. It's so challenging. I mean, so vast. The more I look into it, the more I realize how little I actually know.

Maria: 20:50

Absolutely, but yeah, it's like a soap opera, the whole law of the law because every day was oh they are going to approve, no there is not going to pass so there is a Demand. Every day we have this was so exciting. So that contributed a lot. So in this industry you have the watching history being done. When I was there I saw it. So it was very exciting. Yes. But at that time, I didn't work with privacy. So I didn't have this experience of being on the field. I didn't know it's going to work with privacy. So it was a previous question. I think that this movement of seeing history being made was definitely a factor that it has the passion about privacy.

Jamal: 21:45

I think I was really insightful in what you said there if you actually got to see history being made. And what you said earlier as well actually was quite fascinating. You said you love one thing you love about privacy is because it impacts everyone, impacts you, impacts your friends, impacts your parents, impacts your children. Everyone has some kind of personal data and the more we rely on technology, and the more we become reliant on smart devices, the more data is being generated and the more valuable that data is becoming to certain businesses. And it's very important to make sure that we do our best to make sure that that data is being protected and kept private and being treated ethically and respectfully. So thank you for sharing that.

Jamilla: 22:26

Okay, Maria, last question for you and we'll give you the opportunity to ask Jamal a question. So anything you'd like?

Maria: 22:32

Thank you. You are years and years ahead of us here because you're especially in the training and awareness field. So what would be your advice to professionals that want to increase their training skills?

Jamal: 22:49

So for professionals that want to increase their training? What I would say is when people come to train with a mentor, we should realize that what they're actually paying for is the experience of having that live interaction with the mentor and not the knowledge. The knowledge is available in the book and knowledge is available on the internet. And knowledge is available in law. They don't need more knowledge. They need you to break it down and make sure that they understand how the knowledge actually applies. So come with lots of examples, find lots of different ways of making it relatable to them. And don't just read out slides. People are not investing huge sums of money for you to read the slides. They could have easily done that. All you want to do is make sure that that time that you have with them is the best investment and the best choice they've ever made in their life. And you need to be sure by the time they leave your training that you can confidently say that investment they made to come and train with me or training my organization was the best decision they've made in their life and the way we do that is by breaking down the concepts in a way that even a 10 year old child can understand by bringing in lots of different examples, any relevant case studies and enforcement actions to really add depth and breadth to the knowledge they've already gained into the knowledge that's already available out there. And that is what I say makes a great training experience. That's what the mentees that come to the Privacy Pros Academy really love is that we take what they already have and what they don't even have some time they come and they get a full 360 degrees perspective, but they actually now understand the application of data privacy law. And European data privacy law and they understand how to go and think about things now. It's not like oh, I've got a template. I need to go and sit back. Now I understand. These are the tools and I can be a master and I can then become an artist with it.

Maria: 24:30

It's wonderful, thank you.

Jamal: 24:32

My pleasure.

Jamilla: 24:33

Thank you so much Maria for coming on our podcast. We've really enjoyed speaking with you. And I hope to go to Rio one day. It's on my bucket list though. Always wanted to go.

Jamal: 24:43

Alright Maria, thank you so much for your time and thank you for sharing all of those nuggets of wisdom and sharing some really valuable takeaways for our listeners.

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Until next time.