Heather:: 00:00

Be a bit open to where that first job is. So whether it's the government, whether it's consulting, but find where you can just start.

Intro: 00:10

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. The podcast to launch, progress and excel your career as a Privacy Pro. Hear about the latest news and developments. Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals.

And hear real stories and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to. We've trained people in over 137 countries and countries. So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy. Or you're an experienced professional. This is the podcast for you.

Jamal: 01:04

Are you ready to transform your privacy career aspirations into reality? Today we're joined by a seasoned privacy expert. Who's ready to share her insider knowledge to help you to get that successful career. We dive into the biggest hurdles you'll face, how your current skillset can work for you and the soft skills that will catapult your career to the next level. Get your pen and paper ready because you don't want to miss these valuable tips and insights. I'm your host, Jamal Ahmed, award winning global privacy expert and founder of the Privacy Pros Academy, where we're building a community of high performance privacy professionals who are empowering businesses to adopt honest privacy practices. And I'm thrilled to have you listening in today. This episode is brought to you by the Privacy Pros Academy, the world's leading provider of practical data privacy education programs for world class privacy professionals. We've helped over 500 people around the world to secure their first privacy role, get promoted and become industry thought leaders. So if you want a thriving privacy career, get in touch today. And to claim your free chapter of my international bestselling book, the easy peasy guide to the GDPR visit www. bestgdprbook.com/free.

Jamal: 02:13

Our amazing guest today is none other than Heather Fetterman. She has an extensive career in data privacy advising organizations of all sizes on cutting edge issues. She is currently the head of Privacy and Product Council at Signifyd, where she manages and leads initiatives related to privacy evangelism, shift left implementation, data compliance, and industry collaboration. Prior to joining Signifyd, Heather held leadership roles at global corporate enterprises such as American Express. Heather has served on advisory boards for the Future of Privacy Forum, the IAPP's Privacy Section Bar, and IAPP's Publications Advisory Board. She is a certified information privacy professional over the U.S. and admitted to practice law in New Jersey and New York. Outside of privacy, Heather enjoys leading guided meditations at New York Loves yoga. Wow. Awesome. How did you get into that?

Heather: 03:05

It's easy to get burnt out and stressed doing what we do as much as we might love it. So for me, I wanted to explore meditation on my own. And sometimes you find that in order to learn, you actually have to learn how to teach others.

And the opportunity arose a few years ago and I love it. It's a different experience when you're doing a meditation yourself versus leading folks in a meditation.

Jamal: 03:29

Well, maybe if I get to New York one day, I can join one of those classes.

Heather: 03:33

Sure.

Jamal: 03:34

Okay. So how would you describe your year so far in one sentence?

Heather: 03:38

Busy.

Jamal: 03:38

Busy good, busy bad or busy, busy,

Heather: 03:41

How would I describe my year? Are we talking professionally?

Jamal: 03:44

However you want to tell us.

Heather: 03:46

My year has been transformational and, and perhaps this isn't one sentence. And I think things might shift in the course of one's career, but I have found that there's been a lot of personal matters I've been dealing with the last year and some of them really wonderful. With that in mind, I'd say some of those professional development type goals sometimes take a back seat. And at first it was a bit of a internal struggle about that, but part of life is learning how to prioritize. So I'm okay with the fact that right now I've had to prioritize more personal goals versus professional goals.

Jamal: 04:25

That's amazing. I love that. And I think it takes a lot of brevity to be able to say this is what I need to focus on because what sometimes professionals forget, is that life isn't just about one segment and the way I like to describe it to my mentees is you have a circle, like imagine a car tire.

Now if that car tire is inflated evenly and inflated well, then you will go very fast and have a very smooth journey. But if it's inflated or deflated at a point, then every time you get to that point, you will face that resistance. You'll get stuck. It will require more energy and effort than it needs, and you'll end up damaging structure of the tire. And so how I relate that to what we do is in life, we have a lot of different areas.

Vocation is one area, then your spiritual side, then you've got your social side, you've got your familial side, you've got financial, you've got your mental. And you have to work on all of those, including the spiritual to be a well rounded professional, because you're suffering in one area, it's obviously going to impact what happens in your vocational area and else. And when most people just focus on one of those areas, instead of Paying enough attention to all of those, that's what leads to those things that you were talking about, like burnout, for example, in my experience anyway.

So I'm so happy that you started off by sharing about and reminding us that it's very important to have that rounded approach to our lives.

And the more we put into ourselves, the greater impact that's going to have in our professional life. So, I'm so happy to hear that you've been prioritizing the right things.

Heather: 05:47

One thing I'd actually share then, because this is for folks trying to develop their careers, is I remember when I was starting out, I think it was probably a year or so after law school, and I remember that all I could think about, all I could talk about were privacy related topics. It was to the point of obsession, essentially.

And I realized that I need to find other things in life that give me purpose and meaning. And thankfully, decade plus later, that's led to a much more well rounded existence, I hope. But in the beginning it was very hard to detach oneself from one's vocation. So that would actually be something I do recommend.

Jamal: 06:26

Great. I love that. And it's probably done wonders for your social life too, right?

Heather: 06:30

Yes. I mean, people don't necessarily love when you show up to the table and just want to chat about how their data is being used. So,

Jamal: 06:36

Guess what, Heather? I was speaking to one of my mentees, earlier on this week and she was saying she had spent the weekend at a restaurant, and this restaurant, have surveillance, just like most other places you'd expect especially in London, but they was actually recording conversations. What’s your take on that?

Heather: 06:56

Well, besides the legality of that, I don't know what the recording consent laws are. It just sounds like a huge ethical violation, potentially. My guess is they were probably doing it maybe to, Understand analytics of what their restaurant users were talking about. But a huge part of privacy is context and the expectations of, let's say, a reasonable restaurant goer.

And I would not walk into a restaurant expecting them to be recording my conversation. I just wouldn't enter in the first place. And it sounds like your friend may have not even been notified that they were going to be recorded in the first place. So that in itself is a huge red flag. And I'm surprised that a regulator hasn't caught that yet.

Jamal: 07:40

Yeah, I was shocked. I couldn't believe it. And I was like, when I'm going out to the restaurant, it's usually because I want to go and relax, have some time with family. Occasionally, it might be a business meeting, but I definitely don't want any of those things recorded. And I would not feel comfortable going into a space where my conversations are being recorded. Like, what are you going to do with them? What is the purpose? Who's going to listen to them? How long are you going to keep them? Are you going to publish them somewhere later? Why? Why? Just because you can, just because you've got an equipment that's got a microphone on it. Why are you even doing it?

Heather: 08:10

But you bring up something important that it's about the context of where you're at. So if you're going to a restaurant to enjoy yourself, to have a drink, to let a little loose, you might be talking about subjects that are a bit more intimate, that you feel a little vulnerable about. So you're going to feel more okay to share, but you don't necessarily want that recorded.

Whereas I do know folks that love to record their meetings when they're in a work context, just for the simple fact they want to make sure they capture all the important points that are said. Okay. And that's a different context.

Jamal: 08:38

That's your choice. That's you choosing to do that, not entering an environment where you have no choice. And I don't even know how many people actually realize that's what's happening in the restaurant, which is the most concerning thing.

Heather: 08:47

That's the problem. People don't really realize that it's happening and they don't realize what choices they've had because in America, I don't know if this is happening globally with flying, but one thing I've noticed now when you're in the security line is they just use the facial recognition device.

But if you just go up to them and say, Hey, I want to opt out of this. They'll just take your passport or and your boarding pass instead, but people don't even realize they have that option because it's not like there's a sign saying, Hey, you can opt out of this or, Hey, you have other opportunities.

And so that falls into those principles of privacy about what someone would assume, what's the purpose of doing this? what sort of transparency and choice. Do you really have?

Jamal: 09:25

Yeah, great things for us to start thinking about. Now the privacy industry is growing and it's been growing year on year over the last five years, at least, and competition for roles is fierce. What are some actionable ways that aspiring privacy pros or people who are looking to get up to the next step on the career ladder implement to differentiate themselves in the job market?

Heather: 09:45

I've probably been thinking about that question my whole career because I remember when I was in that place and how hard it was to advance. For some reason, there's just this weird bottleneck at the very beginning. But once you kind of hit like 3 to 5 years in, it becomes a bit more of a smoother transition to really find a job somewhere or whatnot.

So a few suggestions, one is the networking part of it. It's really important to put yourself out there just to have conversations with people. You learn, they might know of an opening somewhere. They might know of someone who's looking or they'll just keep you in mind. So I know it's a little bit harder in this more remote first world perhaps, but I would definitely overemphasize the importance of outreach and networking. And again, people are pretty open to having a coffee chat or a virtual chat as long as your intentions are kind of honourable in that situation. So that would definitely be one thing. I think another one is around really understanding, The technology that you're working with being able to really speak tech, speak data. it's a bit of a different skill set. It's a different language, but that also will really help you understand what it is that those folks are trying to achieve. A lot of privacy is what we do is relationship dependent.

So again, that first part was about the networking part within our privacy community, but then there's also relationships with other folks that are working with data and doing things. So if you can come and speak their language, if you can speak broken tech or whatever it is, that will also definitely help not just, get you in the door, but really kind of help push an initiative within your company or helping others in terms of what they're trying to do.

Heather: 11:32

Another one that came up very recently, and this isn't my idea. This was an idea of a good friend of mine in the space was he was sharing with me about how he's really glad that he took a class in economics when he was in university.

And at first I was like, what are you talking about? But then when we discussed it further, he was explaining how it really gave him a sense of understanding, how trade flows with data. Understanding the economics of the business and how data and privacy might relate to that.

And that's something I've been focusing much more on the last few years is more about how privacy can be a business enabler. So, yes, it's important to know, especially when you're starting out kind of the letter of the law. What are the key things that you should know to protect your business, but also knowing how you can help businesses and not just make privacy a cost centre.

But thinking about it from an R. O. I. perspective, it does help in terms of those conversations with folks more in the finance business side of the house.

Jamal: 12:39

Wow, amazing tips. I love that. So your top tip is really focus on networking and this is one of the things that I'm always telling people is your network is going to be the thing that helps you. You need to be speaking to the right people, having the right conversations and just making sure you're visible in the right places because to get hired you need to be the right person in the right place at the right time. You can't be in all places All at once But that's where your network will come in and help you to be the right person in the right place at the right time.

So really focusing on networking and it's just taking the initiative to ask somebody or invite them or buy them coffee But have the virtual chat with them. Something to just build those connections and you said the other thing is okay in networking externally is very important, but also internally building those relationships with the stakeholders, with the people who work with data.

[So that when you actually want to go and get their buy in, you'd become a lot more credible if you can speak in the language that they're speaking, if you understand the terminology, if you can use technical language that actually makes sense to them and it connects with them. And they'd be like, Oh yeah, you know what you're talking about.

Yeah, we can see it makes sense. One of the challenges I found with what, especially earlier in my career is when I was trying to get buy in, when I was trying to present an idea. Especially going in as a consultant is it was like, well, who are you? You know, nothing about us. You know, nothing about our company. Why should we listen to you? Okay. Yeah. It's very well the law says this, the law says that, but we're not lawyers. We don't really care what the law says. We're more business focused. Right. And so really being able to understand and empathize with them, having spent time with people in those sectors is really valuable and I can't overemphasize that enough either. So I think that's a great tip. One that isn't mentioned by that many people, that are giving career advice.

Heather: 14:20

Just one thing I'd add to that, if you are brand new in this space and just trying to figure out when you're doing that networking, it's okay to reach out to folks that aren't just in privacy. You could reach out to folks that maybe list themselves as an engineer, or have more of a business background, or a few friends in that space and just say, Hey, Give me the heads up of where I should be looking, what sort of resources I should have. So that network, like you were talking about, it's not just the privacy network. It's your network beyond that network. Yes,

Jamal: 14:48

And the other thing you're talking about was actually stacking skills. So you have your privacy skills, you have the legal skills, maybe even have some project management skills Which is definitely something you'd focus on but understanding economics, understanding How this is going to actually support the business long term in line with their goals and their commercial objectives and how what you're proposing ties into that, or the considerations that you need to have when you're coming up with an approach to whatever challenge you're trying to overcome. That's what's going to set you apart from the rest of the competition. And anyone that can really demonstrate and focuses on that, I guarantee you that when I'm speaking to recruiters and hiring managers, they will get an offer the same day. Most of the time, they'll say, don't let them leave the building without signing a contract because it's hard to come across legally trained professionals, people in privacy who actually have that awareness and see the bigger picture and how what they're doing fits in and ties into that.

So the mindset of stacking skills, really understanding the context and the bigger picture, I think that's super advice, Heather. Someone should pay you for this advice.

Heather: 15:46

I'm happy to give it to folks starting out. To me, I look at it that it's a win win that if there are more privacy practitioners who take that approach of let me also have that business practical Side, then it's a win for the industry. Because at the end of the day, when I'm on a call negotiating a contract with, I'm on the B to B side right now.

So if I'm negotiating contract with a privacy council for that customer, if they're taking a practical approach and I'm taking a practical approach, it's a much smoother conversation versus if they're very risk averse or they're just very much like this is the law and this is how we have to think about things.

Jamal: 16:23

Now, one of the major obstacles a lot of people face, and this is not just limited to privacy, is you can't get hired because you don't have the experience, and you can't get the experience because you're not getting hired. So, with this paradox that's been there from as long as I can remember, what are some creative ways that privacy pros can build relevant experience or demonstrate they have the competencies before even landing that role?

Heather: 16:52

I mean the best advice my internet law professor gave me back in the day was just write. Put out your thoughts. So when you kind of figure out the parts of this space that you're interested in, but it's also getting your thoughts out there. I think it kind of goes back to something you said earlier about making yourself more known and visible. So I would just say writing about things. I think everyone at this point probably has a friend doing some sort of small website of something and just volunteering to say, Hey, can I help you with your terms? Can I help you with your privacy statement?

Can we maybe talk about what your data flow looks like? That's the sort of experience you can put on your resume and just say, Hey, I volunteer and I do this in a clinic sort of fashion or something like that. Actually I have this quote at my desk.

My law school friend gave this to me and it says George Bernard Shaw quote. The people who get on in the world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want. And if they can't find them, make them. And so I keep that at my desk. Because it's still relevant till my life today.

Heather: 17:56

But when you're starting out, as you mentioned in this industry where it's so hard to figure it out, look for those circumstances, make them happen, write about it. Do that networking, put yourself out there and you might have to be creative in your thinking and whatnot, but that's okay.I don't necessarily have an answer. Again it's very specific to, I think what a person's unique skill set is, but that's also part of it, figuring out what are the top two, three things in terms of maybe those soft skills that you contribute in, and then using that to try and make a headway.

Jamal: 18:33

I love that. It's very complimentary to the advice I give when I'm answering this question. So the first thing I love is you're saying, take responsibility. Don't wait for things to happen. Don't wait for someone to knock on the door and stop sitting there complaining about how, no, you're not getting hired because you don't have the experience. What are you actually doing about it? And the answer is you can actually do so much about it. And I love that quote that your law school friend gave you. You have some great things friends, by the way. It says, take responsibility. If the circumstances aren't right, create them. And that's the difference between people who win and people who don't is winners create the conditions for success. So what can I do to take responsibility to move one step closer towards my goal? And one of the things you said is you can actually go and volunteer. You can volunteer if your friend's got a business, if there's a family business, if there's a charity, a church, a mosque. Something locally that could do with that help that you know, they're under resourced go and help them. And in fact one of the things I did, when I first started earlier in my career and I wanted to move up into the more responsible roles is One of my friends we were both starting out at the same time. We set up a limited company Omira Consulting Group and all we did with that consulting group was approach charities That needed help that didn't have the budget and we would offer them something that was unbelievable offer for them. So they got great value for money. And the reason we did that is because, Hey, we wanted experience in solving this challenge. We haven't done this before, so let's see who can we find that needs that help. Let's go and offer to do it for them at a fraction of the cost of anywhere else. They get value, we learn, and everyone gets value from that in the process. And guess what I did when I started solving those problems, I would come on LinkedIn and I would talk about, this is a problem that we've had, this is how we've solved it. And they would actually give us a case study and say, yeah, they were great. They did this, they did this, they took a practical approach. And that ties into what I like to think about as personal branding. So you said writing about stuff, right? So if you're not already doing something, find ways of getting and developing those competencies, because when people say we hired somebody with more experience, what they're saying is we found somebody to be more credible in terms of being able to competent to do this job. So experience is an indicator of competence. Experience doesn't equal competence. Therefore, lack of experience doesn't equal incompetence. So go and find ways to develop that competence and then talk about it. Get visible, start writing about it, go on a blog. You can do articles on LinkedIn. Anybody can write articles on LinkedIn. You can write LinkedIn posts. If you're more creative, you can do infographics. LinkedIn do all of these cool carousels and so much stuff you can just do there. And it's a great platform to be able to really express yourself, but show people The value that you bring to the table, the things that you can do. And that's definitely going to get the attention of recruiters and hiring managers. And even if it doesn't get you those initial offers without you applying for jobs to begin with, when you apply for those roles and they look at your CV and your LinkedIn, and they compare that to the competition, guess who's going to stand out. It's going to be the person that's talking about how they're solving those problems. And that's what recruiters want to see. That shows that passion, that shows the competency and that's what gets in front of them. Now you're in front of them. You just got to bring that mindset and those goals that you've had in front of you and convince them that number one, you're motivated to work for that company and in that specific role.

Jamal: 21:37

Number two, you have the competency and number three, you're going to be a great cultural fit. You're going to come in and you're going to raise the bar or at least maintain it. Nobody wants to hire someone that's going to come down and reduce the bar. And that's where the growth mindset and really paying attention, investing in yourself. All of those amazing things come in. And I can see Heather, when I look at your LinkedIn profile, and when we was doing the research, like you're a shiny example of how to really position yourself, how to invest in yourself and how to keep progressing. And I loved what I was almost perceiving in your mindset of always wanting to better yourself, always wanting to progress, helping other folks out, contributing and being a valuable person. So everything you're saying here is something that I've already seen on your LinkedIn profile, which is why I was so Eager to get you on the podcast. And I'm so grateful. I know you've had a really busy year that you've been able to give us this afternoon today to have that conversation with us.

Heather: 22:26

I'm happy to share that. So thank you for having me. And one other thing I actually just thought about too just because it's that first start. In the beginning, it can be hard to be somewhat choosy about the type of job you might want in the privacy space. So I typically would share with folks.

Be a bit open to where that first job is. So whether it's the government, whether it's consulting, whether it's a firm, in house is typically a bit harder to get just starting out. Folks are typically looking for a bit more experience, but find where you can just start. And then you might not love it. It's your first job, but again, it's about that experience.

So that's kind of like finding those circumstances, but also, especially in the beginning, being open to what those circumstances might be, because once you then get to that, let's say two, three year mark, then I find you can be a bit more selective as, okay, I'm in this space. What do I like?

Heather: 23:24

What do I not like? What do I want to learn more about? That's when you can kind of move around a bit. And the interesting thing is that you don't necessarily have to know where you are going to be in 10 years from now. You just kind of have to know where you want to maybe be for, let's say, your next chapter. So how does your current job maybe affect your next chapter ahead? And that's kind of how I've thought about it. Because if I think about the next decade of my career, that's way too overwhelming. But if I think about what do I want to learn and experience in this current chapter, that's a much more manageable thing for me to think about. And just to think about what is the story I'm trying to tell and learn from myself at this moment in time. And what I wanted four or five years ago, life career wise, it's very different than what I want life career wise right now.

Jamal: 24:11

That's really sound advice. Actually. I think a lot of people do sometimes get overwhelmed or they actually feel low in their self esteem. And someone asked them, where do you want to be in 10 years? And they don't like it. Like the worst question anybody could ever ask anyone in an interview is where do you see yourself in 10 years from now? Every time I hear that in an interview, I'm not going to answer that

Heather: 24:29

I'll share a little insider tip if that helps, because I was asked that in my recent interview. I was asked, where do you see yourself in five, 10 years? And I answered, honestly, I'm like I don't know, but what I do really want to experience is a late-stage tech company going through some sort of exit strategy.

And it would be an amazing experience to have that with this particular company. And they loved that response because again, it wasn't focused on this future that I don't know about. It's focused on where the company What they want to achieve in the next few years and how I could potentially help them get there.

So that's how I would take those sorts of questions if it comes up in an interview, cause people do love to ask that. Think about what's the company strategy and how you can help get them there through some sort of privacy enabler or initiative.

Jamal: 25:18

I love that. That's awesome. I'm going to borrow that every time I to somebody who asks me that question. So typically, I haven't been great at answering these questions because I've always told the recruiter. Make sure they don't ask me that question because it doesn't mean anything to anyone, especially when you're going in as a contractor, right? So I'm coming in to help them with a specific project. Why do they care where I'm in 10 years time, right? Who knows what's going to happen? I don't even know what my life's going to look like in 10 years time.

I don't know what's going to happen.

Things could happen. What I do know is that I want to be the best I can be and every day I'm going to wake up and focus on delivering my best, being as valuable as I can. And always making sure I'm improving and focusing on 1 percent growth. But what I love about what you said about not getting overwhelmed by thinking about the next 10 years is something one of my mentors actually said to me is they said, always know your next logical step.

And he actually went as far as saying, you should know your next five moves. So as long as you know your next five moves, that's more than enough. And that's all you need to focus on. And those moves might change later down the line, but as long as you know what your next logical next step forward is and what your next five moves are. Then that's what you need to think about. Don't worry about anything else. And that really helped me to really focus, get grounded and just go and achieve some amazing things. And so what you're saying there is almost an echo of that through your own experience, which I love. So thank you for sharing that. Now we call this the privacy superpower question. If you could grant every aspiring privacy pro one skill or perspective, what would that be? And why

Heather: 26:46

Normally I would say a better technical acumen, but I'm going to say a better business acumen. I think that's actually more important. To be able to go in and understand how the business functions in all aspects or in the important aspects that matter. Because if you can understand what the needs of your business are and where they want to be in three, five, let's say even 10 years, it's going to make it a much easier time for how you can relate what you are trying to achieve in terms of privacy by design and all those initiatives. You can basically marry those two together because you're going to be speaking their language and explain how this can help them in terms of what their business needs are. So ultimately a better business acumen, I'd say.

Jamal: 27:34

That is a great answer. And you know, one of the things that really makes me upset sometimes is when you see privacy professionals offering guidance or advice, and you know that there is no way this business has the resources to even entertain that. Why are you even suggesting that? So for example, if you've got a business who is scrapping together, the budget for their privacy program for the year, asking them to invest a hundred thousand pounds in a software that they don't have the business analyst that they're going to need to implement to make it work for them.

Heather: 28:09

Yeah.

Jamal: 28:10

Isn't going to do anything for this business. Like there's no business acumen. They're like, what are you even thinking about? It doesn't make any sense just because you use this tool a few times or just because you get a kickback from it doesn't mean that this is the best advice for the business. You need to think about the business and you need to think about where they are and where they're heading and what resources they have available to them, and you can only do that if you have that business acumen.

Heather: 28:30

Because if you understand the business and what they're doing. Also understanding if you have the, let's say the privacy expertise and whatnot, you'll understand what the greatest risks are from that perspective. This kind of goes with the business acumen, but to really have a practical approach to these things.

Because there's no point in spending a hundred K on some really great privacy tool. If it's not going to make sense for your business, And you don't have the resources to really set it up. So I mean, maybe that will be great in three years from now when the business has changed, when they really see the need for that, when you're proving value in other areas.

So actually that's another piece of advice I would add, that my current boss taught me is about finding when you start out really finding what those small wins are because you want to prove value early on. Cause that again, helps that relationship building inside your organization.

Jamal: 29:22

I am going to quote you on that prove value early on.

Heather: 29:28

I don't even think that's from me. I think that's from the, like the ideas. What's that book? The 90 day plan. It's a book years ago, a mentor gave to me. And it's essentially about when you start a job or you actually, get promoted or switch within a large organization, how you should really think about the first 90 days of that experience and Part of it, especially the first 30 days, you want to just think about understanding the culture and the context and where you're at, but within that 90 days, it's about what are the sort of wins that you can have within those first 90 days and you're not going to be able to create an entire privacy program in 90 days.

That's impossible, but there are maybe smaller things you can do for your business that they really need right away that they'll be able to see. Wow, this is great. What else can this person do?

Jamal: 30:13

Great, great tips and that's a book that I recommend everyone puts on their reading list, the 90 day plan and you break that down into 30 days, 30 days,30 days. So your first quarter, what does that look like? The most important thing, first of all, is understanding the context and the culture of where you find yourself in. And then you want to provide some quick wins so you can prove your value early on. Some gems you're dropping here, Heather. I want to know what you had for breakfast.

Heather: 30:39

Just a latte today so.

Jamal: 30:40

All right, so caffeine, right? Now my next question is every career and every professional especially someone that's done as well as you have experienced tough moments. Can you share a specific challenge you faced and how you had to overcome that in your privacy journey and what lessons did that leave you with that you still look back on today.

Heather: 31:03

So there's one that I always go back to. It was a few jobs ago and we were doing a major update to our privacy statement. And I found that it's a bit different to go through a privacy update at a very big organization versus a very small one.

The stakes are much higher in a big organization and you need many more folks to sign off on this. Actually, I would offer that as a good experience for anyone starting out because you learn a lot about project management and having to do something like that. but then at this particular company, Because it was a material update, you're supposed to give notice to your customers or consumers when doing this and there were some limitations with the design of the site and what this notice looked like.

Heather: 31:47

So the day that it came out, it was like really scary looking of like we have updated our privacy policy in all caps. The executives were freaking out about it and then we had to pull that, but then we also had to pull the actual privacy statements for that and other brands, because it was basically kind of a disaster of a day.

But I do remember thinking at the end of that day, this isn't the end of the world. I think we have to remind ourselves within privacy that it's not the end of the world. These things are there to toughen us up. And that was one of the hardest days in terms of it felt like a bit of a failure sort of feeling, but I think that's part of it too, is figuring out again, compromise with those relationships within the business.

And because there were so many parties involved, it was a lot of project management, it was a lot of relationship building. So I think a month or so later, we figured out maybe a slightly better font to get that up. And eventually we had that change and whatnot.

Heather: 32:45

And that's like a very minute example, but it's just one that sticks out in my head, just even all these years later, because it just kind of shows that your role as a privacy professional in the business doesn't exist in a vacuum. There are so many other competing priorities and you're just one tiny part of it.

And also your job is a pretty thankless job. No one's going to give you a gold star just because you've kept the company out of trouble or there has not been a breach this year. But the fact that Nothing bad has happened should actually be some sort of reward for yourself at the end of the day.

So I think keeping those things in mind that you're just one tiny cog in a machine but that's okay. You're a tiny cog, but you're an important cog and you just have to kind of remind yourself of that.

Jamal: 33:30

I think that relates back to what you were saying earlier about having that business acumen, seeing where you fit in, in relation to the rest of the business. That's part of the business acumen that when you appreciate that, it's actually going to help you quite a lot. Now, going back to this horrible day you had, how was you feeling and how did you find the resilience to move past that? Rather than let it becoming a downward spiral.

Heather: 33:53

Well, it was a Friday when this all happened. So I had the weekend to just take a step back and this was even pre GDPR, CCPA, state law craziness. But it's finding that ability to remove yourself from the job and do the things that are self care related, whatever that might mean.

So for me, that was that path of meditation that I have loved to explore on a side part. My boss was a very good mentor about the whole experience. So I was lucky for that too. He didn't look at me and blame me and tell me what a terrible job I did.

[And it was actually crazy because he wasn't even in town when this all happened, but he didn't say to me, how could you? It was more of like, okay, fix it. So I think that's something to keep in mind, too, is a good manager now of, you know, your direct reports, people on their team, like they're gonna make mistakes.

And sometimes it's within their control. Sometimes it's not within their control. So I think that was also really helpful to it was. It was a mixture of the self care and the mixture of having a really good boss who was very kind about the whole experience.

Jamal: 34:53

Thanks for sharing that. So what I'm taking away from that is when you find ourselves in difficult situations, the first thing we should do is remove ourselves from the situation, detach ourselves so we get perspective. It helps to surround ourselves with great leaders and people who are actually able to offer that supportive perspective. It's not the end of the world. Everything's going to be fine. We just got to figure it out. And that gives you that time in that space. When you go and focus on yourself for a bit, then you can come back with a fresh perspective. And I can't remember who it was that said this. They said, you can't solve a problem at the same level of thinking in which was created.

And I find so many people struggle with that is something happens and they just focus all in and they can't see anything else and they're trying to solve it At the same level of thinking in which the problem was created So by doing the meditation by doing something that detaches you from that Taking a step back lets you go to a different level of thinking and now you can come in and try and solve that and eventually you did find a great solution.

So for thank you very much Heather for sharing that with us .You've dropped some amazing gems across the way. Now you get to ask me a question.

Heather: 35:50

What's the number one struggle you see for young folks that are starting out? Like, what do you think is the main thing that holds them back?

Jamal: 35:59

Think the number one challenge, people young in their privacy career have is there's lots of misconceptions and what they believe they're lacking oftentimes is credibility.

And they think that the only way or the right way, there's only one way of getting that credibility.

And that is to get the alphabet soup after the name and going after any certification, any. course, anything that just gives them a piece of paper that gives them something to post on their LinkedIn or put on them. And I don't think that actually helps at all. I would value someone that's actually thought about which certification they're pursuing, which academic education they're pursuing and saying, okay, why?

Jamal: 36:35

Explain why? And they say, okay, I want this knowledge. I'm interested in this. So I think the biggest challenge is a lot of people think that to progress they need to become more credible and they believe that the only way to become more credible is to get More certifications and sometimes they're coming up with empty certifications. Other folks think that they can impress people by memorizing huge chunks of legalese. It's all available for free. We don't need to hire somebody that can memorize that. I think what's more valuable is focusing on the wider picture the context like you say. Having that business acumen, Developing project management skills, developing emotional intelligence, because at the end of the day, everything that we do is going to be engaging other people in the business to do the change that we need to do or using other people's information.

Jamal: 37:16

So we need to understand how they feel, how they might perceive this. But also when we're doing business with other companies, we're doing business with the people in those companies. Companies don't do business with each other. They're just empty shells, right? It's the people inside the business that make things happen.

Unless you have that emotional intelligence, how to build rapport, building those relationships, talking to people in a language you understand, Empathizing and understanding where they're coming at what their challenges are and what their main focus is and how you can actually Reassure them, appease them or show you're adding value to that. Those are the things that help you stand out and I think that's the only reason i've managed to really Accelerate my career progression, even though I don't have a technical background, even though I don't have a legal background Um to get to where I am right now is because I can see That I know how to connect with people.

Jamal: 38:01

I can understand their problems and I can show how I can solve that Doing the things we're doing in the privacy way and even if it's coming at a cost and there's no actual tangible business return on investment They understand why this actually makes sense and how this is supporting their longer term vision And getting them to where they want to get to and so one of the things I focus on Is really helping them to understand how it's going to help their reputation. How it's going to help them In the long run to win trust, which is going to bring more customers and ultimately how that's going to help them to have a bigger impact with the thing that they're actually focused on doing. And the moment you can tie all of those things in, the moment you can disarm people who are like, yeah, you're just here to get me in trouble, but actually making sure you make them feel seen and heard, then everything changes.

And I think that's the game changer and the technical knowledge. It's great to have it, but I don't think that's the thing that gives you credibility because that's easy to develop. That's easy to go and upscale on. The soft skills. The other ones that are harder to come by, but for me, those are the ones that make the difference that make the

Heather: 38:59

I agree with everything you just said.

Jamal: 39:02

Awesome. Heather, it's been an absolute pleasure having you on the podcast today. Thank you so much for making the time and I look forward to speaking with you again soon.

Heather: 39:08

Thank you.

Jamal: 39:09

That's all for this week, folks. Make sure that you go back and listen to this, share your takeaways on LinkedIn and reach out to Heather. She's available on LinkedIn. Thank her for all this valuable advice. And when you land those roles and pass those interviews based on everything she said, make sure you actually reach out and thank her and get her a coffee too. Until next time, peace be with you.

Outro: 39:28

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