Jamal: 00:00

I want to help more people. We can change more lives and that's what the community is all about.

Intro: 00:04

Are you ready to know what you don't know about Privacy Pros? Then you're in the right place. Welcome to the Privacy Pros Academy podcast by Kazient Privacy Experts. The podcast to launch, progress and excel your career as a Privacy Pro. Hear about the latest news and developments. Discover fascinating insights from leading global privacy professionals.

And hear real stories and top tips from the people who've been where you want to get to. We've trained people in over 137 countries and countries. So whether you're thinking about starting a career in data privacy. Or you're an experienced professional. This is the podcast for you.

Jamal: 00:57

Hello and welcome to a very special episode of the Privacy Pros Podcast. Today is our 100th episode. That's right. We've had 99 episodes go out before this and We've hit a milestone of a hundred episodes. I'm super excited and to celebrate this moment with me. And to give you guys immense value I've brought back a special co-host who has been with me from the very beginning of our podcast journey.

I'm your host Jamal Ahmed, award winning global privacy expert and founder of the Privacy Pros academy where we are building a community of high-performance Privacy professionals who empower businesses to adopt honest privacy practices and I’m thrilled to have you joining today

This episode is brought to you by Kazient Privacy Experts.

We provide pragmatic and easy to implement solutions for governments, smaller, medium sized businesses, and publicly listed multinational corporations.

And we're creating a future where every woman, every man, and every child enjoys freedom over their personal information. To learn more, check out my best selling book, The Easy Peasy Guide to the GDPR, and you can check that out on www.

bestgdprbook. com. Now, I promised you I brought back a special co-host. Jamilla, welcome back to the Privacy Pros.

Jamilla: 02:12

Thank you for having me. Glad to be back for this special episode. I can't believe it's been a hundred and what is it, three years? Did we start in 2021 and now it's 2024?

Jamal: 02:22

You're right. It's been three years. It felt to me like it was just the other day. I still remember trying to do our first episode. I think it took us like half a day and we kept giggling. We were hysterical throughout it.

Jamilla: 02:33

Yeah. And I remember the first few episodes I bothered to wear makeup and then I stopped, but yeah, I can't believe it's been this long and still get dedicated listeners each time you put them out. So that's really cool.

Jamal: 02:44

Yeah, and as we're on our hundredth episode. I think it's about time to acknowledge all of the great work Mahmoudat has been doing behind the scenes and helping this podcast to reach you and go to 137 countries and counting now. Some amazing reach that we have there and I want to thank all of you listeners for being so Engaging, for asking great questions, for all of the reviews, for all of the messages you've been leaving on LinkedIn and all the other places and here's to a hundred more.

So this episode is going to be a little bit different to usual. My team has somehow convinced me that what's going to happen Is I’m going to sit here in front of the microphone and Jamilla is going to fire questions at me. And these questions have been put together by the team, by previous guests, by people listening, by the mentees in our community, and people in the wider community.

And so I haven't seen any of the questions before, I haven't prepared for any of them, and I'm looking forward to them. I'm also a little bit anxious as to what might come up. And they've said I have to answer every question that comes up. So I'm open for it. I'm game if you are Jamilla.

Jamilla: 03:50

I'm looking forward to it.

Jamal: 03:52

All right, the floor is yours. I'll go in the hot seat.

Jamilla: 03:55

I've got my evil smile on. So as Jamal said, we've got questions that have been written by staff members, by listeners. So this is going to be very interesting and I have full control over this podcast.

I think what people really want to know is who's been your favourite guest. And I'm not going to let you get away with saying everyone brings different things to the podcast. Because we all know that.

Jamal: 04:20

That's a very difficult question Because I have lots of favorite episodes for different reasons. I think I would say my favorite guest. I'm not going to reveal who the person is out of respect and acknowledgement for their efforts, but I had a guest who is an introvert and it's the first time they've done something like this.

And so they were very anxious and very nervous. And the reason this is my favourite guest is because I could see they were clearly out of their comfort zone, but they came and they delivered immense value and they had so much fun on the podcast that you could see there were almost like a completely different person by the end.

And now they're looking forward to doing more podcasts and I've seen them doing more things, putting themselves out of their comfort zone later down the line. And this is somebody who is actually a leader in one of their organizations. It's not one of our mentees. So it is one of the actual subject matter expert guests.

And I found that really endearing because I remember when I first did my public facing interview. And I remember how nerve wracking that was, and I remember how great I felt afterwards just because I put myself out of my comfort zone. And here's one thing I want to share with you guys.

If you go back on YouTube and you look at some of my earlier interviews, one thing you'll notice consistently is whenever I was talking about regulations or legislation, I always jumbled both those two words together. You'll always hear me say Regislation, right? No one ever noticed apart from my wife who was you know in hysterics but other than that nobody ever noticed and I was just like, why is it, when it always comes to that word, I always saying Regislation instead of Regulation or Legislation.

And it doesn't matter why because I focus on, you know what, it doesn't matter. So I just got to keep on doing it. And I think I've probably gone through the last year without making that same error again. And if I catch myself doing it, then I just find it funny now. So there you go.

Jamilla: 06:11

I'm going to start a petition to get that word in the dictionary. Next question.

Have there been any challenging moments over the last hundred episodes?

Jamal: 06:19

When you say, has there been any challenging moments over the last 100 episodes, do you mean like over the last three years, or do you mean specifically for the podcast?

Jamilla: 06:27

Specifically for the podcast, I could name a couple.

Jamal: 06:30

Yeah what do you think have been some of the challenging times?

Jamilla: 06:32

I think getting it off the ground and kind of finding our feet of what the vibe is, of the podcast. It started out, it was, you were doing it and then it became more of a conversation between me, you and the guest, which I think worked better, when we were starting out, because then we would get the perspectives from the two of you as well, and you could put your own thoughts in.

Jamal: 06:54

I think the key challenging moment for me is the consistency. Not everyone realizes how much time, effort, and energy goes into the podcasts, right? And one of the challenges is you're working with people who are not part of your team. You're working with high performance professional who are very in demand for their time to be guests on other podcasts to deliver value to their organizations.

And so oftentimes finding or getting those guests available to appear in your podcast is challenging. And even then, when you have scheduled that time in things always come up. So people are always rearranging, rescheduling, and I'm guilty of doing the same. And for anyone that I've had to reschedule more than once, I want to take this as an opportunity to really sincerely apologize, but this is one of the challenges is other stuff comes up. Data breaches happen. Clients have challenges that they need solving. We have stuff happen. And so the podcast becomes something that's a nice to do rather than a must do.

And that can sometimes create challenges in making sure that we've got consistent, high quality content going out every week. The other thing is, it takes a lot of time to prepare ahead of the podcast. And then once you record the podcast, you have to actually go and have it edited. You have to make sure there's some graphics behind it.

Then you have to do all the marketing behind it. And all of that takes time. All of that takes effort and all of that costs a lot of money. The average Podcast episode cost around $200 when you factor everything in. So now that we've put a hundred episodes out there, that's what, 20,000 pounds worth of podcasts there.

So those are some of the challenges is reconciling. The availability for the podcast, reconciling the availability of the guests, making sure the scheduling works and that everything goes out on time consistently. That's been the strategic and the technical challenges, I would say.

Jamilla: 08:46

Yeah. I think when you listen to a podcast, sometimes you don't think about all the hours that go in behind it, the research, the editing.

What's the best feedback that you've received from a listener about the podcast?

Jamal: 08:58

What's the best feedback I've received from a listener? The best ones are the ones that surprise you. So One of the ones that comes to mind off the top of my head right now is where somebody said that they've just secured their dream role and both interviews went really well and it's all thanks to the insights and the lessons and the takeaways that they gathered from listening to the Privacy Post podcast, from listening to the guests, from listening to me, from listening to our mentees and that's what they are convinced helped them to perform so well in the interview and take that approach and the attitude into their role.

So that’s my most favourite one at the moment.

Jamilla: 09:33

That's really lovely, and it really helps. I think we've had a couple of guests who not necessarily from listening to the podcast, but from going through the Academy, they were able to completely change their lives.

Jamal: 09:45

I love when we bring some of our mentees back and they share their success stories. And the reason I love that is because there's so many people there stuck in a role that they don't enjoy, stuck in a life that they don't deserve, and for whatever reason they can't see a way out of it. And then when they hear someone that they can resonate with, that's been in a similar situation but overcome it, it gives them that hope and that belief that they can do it too, and then they get motivated to actually go and do something about it.

And so I find those individuals that come back and share their stories super inspirational and they actually have no idea how many people are inspired. I know because people message me saying, Hey, I listened to this person and I'm so inspired and I resonate with what they've said, et cetera. I only wish I had the opportunity to share it with the guests sometimes because they have no idea how much of a hero they are in somebody else's life.

Jamilla: 10:31

That's amazing. I think those are the episodes that have definitely had the most impact on me, are the ones where you can really get a sense that their lives have changed. So yeah, go back and listen to those if you haven't already. Is there a hidden gem of an episode you think listeners might have missed?

Jamal: 10:49

Ooh, there's hidden gems in every single episode. And sometimes I even overlook them. And so here's the thing, right? When you're recording a podcast or when you're listening to a podcast, you're at a certain stage or a certain journey. And there is something that's front and center of your mind. And so you pay attention to whatever your subconscious mind is focused on that particular time.

Six months later, you've had new experiences, you've learned new things, you've had new conversations, your mind's more expanded and your focus is different. And when I go back and read the transcripts or listen to some of those, I always find hidden gems in it. Most of the time, what our brain does is it will distort, generalize and delete information that it feels isn't relevant.

Because it's not what we're focusing on subconsciously at the time. And so therefore, we miss so much information that we're not even aware of. And then when we change the focus, we change the lens and we go back and we listen to it again. Like, wow, how did I miss that the first time? That's super powerful.

But all it is is your focus is different. Your subconscious is focusing on something else and It's giving you new things that you can take away from them. So I think there's hidden gems in every single podcast episode. And one of the things I like to do when I'm driving is go back and listen to some of those episodes and see what else I can learn from some of those amazing guests that we have.

Jamilla: 12:01

Yeah, I definitely agree with you. What's the funniest, almost embarrassing thing that's happened to you whilst recording a podcast?

Jamal: 12:07

What's the funniest thing that's happened to me whilst recording a podcast, apart from Jamilla bullying me.

That's a good question, actually. Oh my gosh, here's the funniest thing that's happened. Jamilla, you'll remember this well. Most of you will be familiar with one of our guests Eduardo Ustaran, right? And I Think we followed up with Eduardo for about a year to get him on the podcast And he eventually freed up some time to book to get onto the podcast after us you know constantly trying to get him onto the podcast for a year. And so I was really excited, about getting someone I really look up to You could say what do you call it when you're like a fanboy of someone?

Jamilla: 12:42

I dunno, like he's a role model of yours,

Jamal: 12:45

a role model Yeah, he's a role model inspirational someone i've been looking up to and I was really looking forward To the opportunity to actually speak to him, forget the podcast, right? That was just added value. I just wanted you to have a one on one and really speak to him and just see how he thinks and what got him to compile the textbook and all of the efforts and everything that went in around that, right? So the time comes for the episode and for whatever reason I just can't get my computer to work, right? And so i'm sitting there. I'm sweating. I'm panicking. I'm thinking what's going on My zoom just wouldn't work. We used to use zoom back then and so i'm messaging Jamilla keep Eduardo there I'm trying to get on I can't see what the challenge is. So eventually I find a way to get on, I'm in there, but now my audio and my video, or one of them isn't working.

And Eduardo has been there, it's been about 20 minutes now, and I don't know what Jamilla did, but she managed to keep him for that long. And he's been super patient. Eventually I managed to log on, and I'm just like, oh my gosh, I'm feeling so bad, I'm feeling so apologetic, I'm feeling really flustered. And he was just the coolest guy ever, fully understanding, such a gentleman.

And I took so much away from that, just from that experience of his approach and just how patient and lovely he was. And so Eduardo, if you're listening to this, I have a lot of love and respect for you. Which you know, but it increased when I saw the way you handled that situation. you'd have every right after 10 minutes to say, Hey. Let's try and do this another time.

Jamilla: 14:12

Yeah, that was fun. I was fine. I was just making small talk, talking nonsense as I usually do. I think we spoke about the weather and Yeah, he was a really nice guest.

Jamal: 14:22

One of your hidden talents

Jamilla: 14:24

Just talking nonsense. Yeah,

Jamal: 14:25

keeping people engaged.

Jamilla: 14:27

Yeah, my parents would agree. I'm gonna change it up a bit now and do some of the questions from our community and listeners.

So Alan would like to know I would love to hear any insights and opinions Jamal has about the soon to be released AIGP certification. Other than understanding the laws and standards for AI, what will set the AIGP apart from the CIPT?

Jamal: 14:48

Great questions And the AIGP certification is very new to the market. There isn't very many people who have been certified on it. AI Is very new To people's focus. AI has been there for a long time. But this generative AI with ChatGPT is brought it to the front of everyone's minds now. And although AI is such a focal point for discussions everywhere now I haven't seen any AI roles advertising specific requirements for this AI GP certification And the IAPP has been around for 20 odd years and the CIPPE has been around for some time too.

However, it's only because of the recognition and importance that employers and hiring managers give to it that it became such a big deal, which is why people really strive for those IAPP certifications. Now, I don't see any employer or hiring manager asking for a specific AI certification right now.

Nothing's been proven. And so I would say if you're interested in getting to know more about AI, then it's definitely one I would worth consider. But have a look at what's on the market, speak to people that have already done it. I know the people who were involved in putting some of this material together with the IAPP, and I can vouch for every single one of them as amazing individuals.

However, I don't know enough about this certification. I haven't been exposed to any of the people who have had good or bad experiences of it. It's very new and so everyone's had a new experience of it in my opinion. So I think it's too early to say. Now what's different from it from the CIPT? So the CIPT is for privacy technologists and that's more of a privacy technology role based holistic look at some of the technical elements of it.

The AIGP is more focused around artificial intelligence and the governance of that. And so that would be the key difference between the CIPT and the AIGP.

Jamilla: 16:43

Interesting, thank you. How scared should we be of AI? Because I'm quite terrified of it.

Jamal: 16:49

The way to look at AI is the way to look at any tool, right? So let's take for example money as a tool. Money can be used for both good and bad. It all depends on whose hands it falls into, what their intentions are, And they will just amplify what that tool does for you. So AI is a great tool. We can achieve some really great things with it but also it can be used by people who might not have the best interests or might not have ethical interests at heart and therefore it can actually be amplified and used in a very Evil way too and so that's why it's important to have all of these ethics to have all the regulations in place to try and mitigate AI, this powerful tool being used for evil or detrimental effects on society as much as possible.

Jamilla: 17:39

How can you tell whether or not a company is using stuff for good or evil? You know how like charities are binded by the charity commission? Is there like a set of rules or regulations in terms of AI?

Jamal: 17:51

Right now we're in the wild west. There isn't really any regulation, there isn't really any enforcement, there isn't really any supervision, and that's why privacy professionals, other professionals are asking for things to be brought in, so we have some kind of supervision over it before it goes out of control.

And now, you mentioned earlier AI is scary, right? We haven't seen anything yet. When it comes to AI there's three categories of it. You've got ANI, which is Artificial Narrow Intelligence, which means it pretty much just does the one thing, right? Then you've got AGI, Artificial General Intelligence, which means it can do more than one thing.

And then you've got, and we haven't seen it yet, but it's coming, is ASI, which is Artificial Super Intelligence. And that is fascinating, but it's also very scary and you have every right to feel scared and you equally should be fascinated With the possibilities of what might come with it

Jamilla: 18:43

I guess we're just going to sit back and hope that some regulations and something comes into place to make things seem less scary.

Jamal: 18:50

They're on their way. They're on their way.

Jamilla: 18:53

We have another question about AI from Lana, who says clear view AI case in October, 2023, a tribunal overturned the ICO's decision. 7. 5 million pound fine for data privacy breach after the clear views appeal stating that it was outside the ICO's jurisdiction. question, why doesn't the defense use processing is necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest? It would be interesting to hear your opinion. Thank you.

Jamal: 19:24

It's a very good question. The first thing we have to understand is This wasn't overturned because there wasn't a valid ground to bring it into jurisdiction. It was overturned because Clearview was relying on an exemption That takes them outside of the scope and the exemption was they was using it for law enforcement purposes. And therefore they are not in scope and that's what they was relying on.

So even if the defense uses the argument that processing is necessary for the performance of a task carried out in the public interest, the exemption would still apply and that's what they argued and that's what the ICO need to find an argument to if they're going to appeal that decision.

Jamilla: 19:59

Alan says, Who would you like to see United pick up in the transfer window, if anyone? Oh, this is great. My husband is a United fan, so let me learn something.

Jamal: 20:08

Man, it's depressing days. It's sad times for United right now. I don't think we need to pick up more players, I think we need to pick up a better manager, someone who can actually bring the team together and get the most out of them. Morale seems down. Performance seems down. Everything seems down.

So yeah we need Fergie back.

Jamilla: 20:27

Okay, Uchenna asks, in a situation where an organization has many products, for example, 10 products and has 10 different data processing agreements for each of their products. Now they want to have one DPA for all the products without complicating things. What would be your advice?

Jamal: 20:46

What I would do is look at the most stringent DPA and try and adopt that as the standard. Once you have a standard that covers all of the other DPAs, because all of them are going to have really common elements. Some of them will be more looser than the others, but what you want to do is start off with a standard that gives you the must have protection that you seek.

And as long as you've identified what your goals are, And all of the requirements have been met. Then there is a standard there. The other thing is, there's something called one dpa which is being brought forward by the same team that brought forward one nda And so it might be worth looking at that and seeing if that helps you to meet your requirements

Jamilla: 21:27

Cool. Thank you. Question from me. How's Amy doing? And tell us more about the award she won.

Jamal: 21:32

Right so Amy won an award for her fundraising efforts. So some of you might have seen me push this campaign on LinkedIn around Second quarter last year and what it is. There's a campaign called RFC which is Ramadan family commitment and I've been someone that's been helping with those efforts over the last couple of years.

It's an opportunity to help people all over the world, and what we do is we raise the money, we pull all that into one place, and then that gets distributed amongst a number of registered charities. I think there's about 17 different charities, each with amazing campaigns. It goes all the way from supporting children that are born through maternal care, and those you put them inside incubator units and then helping people through economic empowerment, helping people through education, helping women's rights, helping people who have been refugees and disasters, all the way through helping people at the end of life with end of life care. And also some people that need support when they have no family left to bury them.

So the campaigns something I really believe in, it touches every aspect of people's life. And there's A campaign for something I feel very strongly about across that. So I've been supporting that for years. And this year they invited Amy to support the campaign. And so she joined as the youngest ever fundraiser for the RFC campaign.

And the way Amy raised funds was through reading books. So we asked people to sponsor her to read a book, read a line, read a page. And the lovely listeners of the podcast, the people on LinkedIn, my family, my friends. My wife's family, friends, our networks, everybody joined in and sponsored Amy to read the books.

She read one book a day for 30 days and that's how she managed to raise money. And then the high commissioner for Bangladesh she was really impressed with the efforts and she came along to present Amy with the award.

Jamilla: 23:21

That's really amazing. Well done, Amy. Bless her

Okay back to data privacy. Satyarth, Says, what is the key behind managing time efficiently?

Jamal: 23:33

Satyarth great question. What is the key behind managing time efficiently.

It all comes down to How you prioritize the things that are important to you. And one of the things that you'll find is high performance leaders, high performance professionals They will focus on some key goals that they're focusing on for that month, for that quarter for that year And everything else they say no to. So the first thing is to know what to say yes to And also to say what you need to say no to. Some people have a to do list In fact, everyone I know has a to do list but not many people have a To don't list and what you need to identify are the things that are going to take up your time and your energy That you shouldn't be doing that's actually complete waste and taking away from your goals. So that's the first thing is identify what you should be focusing on and also identify the things that distract you from that And if there's something that you see coming up quite commonly then make sure you get rid of that. Next what you want to do is quantify or categorize the activities into high level activities, medium level activities, and low level activities.

The high level activities are the ones that are going to really move the needle for you. They're your high value activities that help you to achieve your goals. And you want to make sure you focus as much time as you can doing deep work on those. Your medium level activities, that's going to take the next priority, and then that's the next Thing that you want to focus on. Your low level activities You want to try and find a way of either eliminating them or delegating them away to somebody else who can actually take care of that for you because it's taking you away from the things that only you can do And that's going to move the needle for you.

The other thing that works really well is making sure that you chunk your time So one of the things that's really going to steal your time and your energy is task switching if you're doing eight, nine, 10, 11, 12 different things throughout the day, then you're losing half an hour every time you switch tasks.

And what you find high performance professionals do is they will chunk their time. So they have Monday morning, which is focused on one thing, Monday afternoon for another thing, Tuesday is another thing, et cetera, et cetera, for every day of the week. And the more you chunk your time, the more you will find you're able to get most of that time and most of managing your energy as well.

Jamilla: 25:45

I like the idea of a to don't list, but I may start using that to get me out of doing the dishes.

Jamal: 25:50

You should. One of the key things when it comes to managing time is making sure you have boundaries around your time A lot of people because they don't schedule things in They find that time gets stolen or robbed by other people and other things and they find themselves not saying no to commitments Because they haven't booked that time in so One of the things I recommend everyone does is schedule time in even if you're not doing anything At least know what that window of time is going to be spent on And schedule free time for when you want to say yes to social engagements When you want to go and spend time with your friends when you want to go and spend time with your family schedule all those things in, Have boundaries in place and that will help you to get the most out of your 24 hours.

Jamilla: 26:28

Great advice. Thank you. Let's go back to questions about the podcast. Back at the last 100 episodes, what's the one topic you've enjoyed discussing the most and why? I think the most common thing I think people ask you, you know when we have at the end a question for Jamal, I think they always ask you how and why you got into data privacy. Do you enjoy talking about that?

Jamal: 26:51

Do I enjoy talking about it? Yes, I always enjoy sharing my journey and if you can inspire somebody and move someone in the right way then absolutely yes. But I actually enjoy Asking questions to my guests because it gives me an opportunity to learn. When I’m talking about myself It's an opportunity to reflect but not necessarily an opportunity for me to learn and grow and when I’ve got these amazing people, CEOs of companies, top privacy professionals from around the globe.

I really Enjoy using as much of that time as I can to go into their minds And soak up as much of that knowledge as much of their insights as much of their wisdom as I can.

Jamilla: 27:25

Yeah. I like doing the random questions that I used to do at the start.

Jamal: 27:28

The icebreaker ones

Jamilla: 27:29

Yeah, I think people sometimes come into a podcast they're all ready and they're really like, it helps, as you said, break the ice a little bit and maybe let their guard down a little bit to be able to talk more freely and more fun.

Jamal: 27:41

Yeah, a hundred percent.

Jamilla: 27:42

Yeah. Which reminds me, I will think of an icebreaker and put it at the end when you least expect it.

Jamal: 27:48

Okay.

Jamilla: 27:49

Outside of the podcast, have you formed any close friendships or unexpected connections thanks to your show?

Jamal: 27:54

Yes, many friendships and connections. So One of the things that I really cherish is when people reach out to me on LinkedIn or on other platforms, And they say they listen to a specific podcast episode and they like some of the insights that we shared Or some of the guests that they bring in and from that you find we start conversations and those conversations often turn into collaborations, into opportunities or just people becoming closer and more intimately connected.

And then one thing leads to another. Sometimes I'll go and meet them for coffee. We have lunch, next thing, we're doing some amazing things together. And also, it also helps people to understand the value that you bring to the table as well. And therefore, they feel more comfortable asking questions.

One of the things that people won't know is everybody that comes onto the podcast, I invite them to our exclusive Privacy Pros community on Signal. And that's where everyone gets a chance to meet all of the other amazing guests that have been there and some of the discussions that we see on there, some of the conversations that we are having there.

That is insightful and I often find that I'm learning just from listening to some of the responses or just from reading some of the responses. And I think that's been the most valuable thing outside of the podcast that creating that community and giving people a platform where they can share and exchange those ideas and provide insights onto challenges that people have might not have encountered yet.

Jamilla: 29:16

Yeah, I think the community is a really great resource and people asking questions and helping each other out, especially I'd still say data privacy is still quite a new industry. Would you agree? So there's still a lot of things to learn and a lot of developments, and it's really good to see a supportive environment where people are learning from each other rather than in competition with each other.

Jamal: 29:36

You get all sorts of people in every industry, right? And so there's always good people who are willing to share and grow and who really want for you and they want to support you. And then at the other end, you get the gatekeepers, the people that have been in the industry longer than you.

They feel entitled. They don't like new people coming in. They feel threatened. They feel inferior when new people are coming in and getting noticed. The question you should ask yourself is, which kind of people do you want to associate yourself with in the industry? So birds of a feather flock together.

And so if you find the people that are most suited to you, then you'll find that's what you find in the industry. If you focus on the negative side, the negative energy, the negative emotions, then you'll find you're surrounded by those people and your perception of the industry will be horrible. When I first started, I remember I was going to every single WhatsApp group, Facebook group, LinkedIn group webinar, conference I could find.

And I didn't really feel inspired by what I saw. It was a lot of people who are trying to make money, who just wanted to look smart, who just wanted letters after the name without really caring about why they're doing this, without actually being inspired. And I managed to navigate through that and find the kind of people that energized me, find the kind of people that motivated me, find the kind of people that inspired me, the people that who actually want to make a difference.

But it was difficult, and you know what I decided? I said I'm going to create my own community, and that's why we have so many different communities around Forward thinking, powerful people who are actually want to make a difference. People who want to be world class professionals because they actually want their organizations, their clients, to do the right thing with people's privacy.

And the people who actually buy into the same vision that we have where we want every woman, every man, and every child in the world to enjoy freedom over their personal information. And I believe that is the key to Finding the industry or finding the spectrum of industries that's right for you Is, focus on what it is that you want and you will attract those people to you . If you're somebody who has come from a toxic place or you have those toxic traits within you Then it's not too late to do something about it, it might have been one way. You might not even realize that you're hanging around with that group of people. But it's not too late to do something about it. Find the right people. Reach out to me. Reach out to the people in our community. And we'd love to help inspire you and have you inspire us and learn from you too.

Jamilla: 31:55

Something we were speaking about before we started recording, I suppose this past year has been a little bit challenging for a variety of reasons. How have you kept strong through that?

Jamal: 32:06

Yeah, it has. Summer was very challenging. The year 2023 was going amazing. I'd been working really hard on updating the Easy Peasy Guide to the GDPR. This is something I probably gave 7, 000 copies of the first draft out for free. And then I decided, you know what? I'm getting so much good feedback from you.

I actually want to put a little bit more effort into it. And then have it go out as an actual book. Because I can see that a lot more people would benefit from it. And so I put all of my energy, all of my effort, blood, sweat, and tears into producing that. Had an amazing book launch team. We was doing all of the pre launch marketing.

And then there's these two individuals in the industry who, for whatever reason couldn't stand that I was putting a book out. One of them decided to go on LinkedIn and create some horrible posts. Not even having read a page of the book accusing me of all sorts of funny things Which was very challenging because it's someone who is well known in the industry. He's obviously been around a lot longer than me and there was lots of other professionals who've never met me who've never spoken to me, Who've never had any interactions with me who were just jumping on the bandwagon and going along with it. And one of the things that i'm grateful for as a result of that experience is I could actually see who The people that I thought were my friends actually had so much Envy and jealousy and hatred to see somebody doing so well. And it really helped me to navigate away and to the right people. But it also showed me who my real supporters are and i'm so grateful for all of the people who stood by me, Who know me, who have actually invested in our programs who know the value that we bring And they were the people that was like no, we know Jamal.

We've actually spent money with him. We've read his book. We've been promoting his book and some people just couldn't understand how all of these people have decided to volunteer To launch the book. It's because they see the value in it. That's the community we have. I think there was people calling our community a cult, It's because they just don't understand the camaraderie We have. The love that we have for each other, how we celebrate each other's wins. It's such an alien concept to them and because they couldn't understand it.

They started feeling threatened By it. And thinking that we must be paying people to do something or the other and it just turned into a horrible weekend or a couple of weeks where it impacted the people on the book launch team so much that some of them just stopped talking about the book. They all fell under attack and Even people on the team, it wasn't anything we was expecting because we was on such a high, right?

And it brought it to a low. And so navigating through that wasn't easy. It was very challenging. There was times that were very difficult to overcome because emotionally, I'm very resilient, I've been through a lot. I can take those things. But when I see impact, the people that I care about and the people I love, like my family, like my team members, like the people in our academy.

That hurts me more than somebody attacking me and I can't support every single person all of the time And so absorbing that and trying to lead people through that was challenging and actually I'm very grateful that all of those things happened because it allowed me to reflect on what I've been doing.

It allowed me to reflect, to see, hang on, is there any truth in any of this stuff, negative stuff that people are saying? And when we looked through everything, we found that, you know what?

There is nothing there. There might be one or two things that we could have done better. But overall, the value that we provide, the transformation that we provide to people, we're going above and beyond anyone and anything else that's out there in the market right now or has been before.

For example, If you go on my LinkedIn and you look at the recommendation section, you'll see that there's more than 160 recommendations from genuine people who have got value from the programs, from the book, from the podcast, from all of the things that we're putting out there. Which is arguably more, than pretty much all of our competitors and everyone else in the industry pretty much put together.

So that says something on its own. But then when you have people sending you messages, who are writing LinkedIn posts, who are going and defending you, who are going and speaking up for you, who are talking about when you're not actually present and telling you afterwards about the situation, they're advocating for you.

It reminds you of the value that you bring to the table. It reminds you why you need to keep doing what you're doing. And here's the thing, the people at the top will tell you. Haters are always going to hate. It's people beneath you that will always try and bring you down. Don't give them any energy.

Don't give them any oxygen. You just focus on adding value and serving the people that you promised to serve. And that was the best advice I could have taken at the time was not to go and engage or try and figure these things out.

Obviously, I had to take legal advice and follow some legal routes there.

Some people on LinkedIn noticed that too. There was a couple of people that were posting the same repost about how they've been silenced. None of our legal letters are about silencing individuals, just for clarity. They were saying, hey, what you are doing is defamatory. And it's not acceptable and we are not going to let ourselves be bullied by anyone in the industry and we're going to stand up for Our rights and do the right thing And so that was about sending a clear message that we are not here For people to just have a go at. If you have a challenge By all means address it, if we've done something wrong to you by all means Tell everyone on LinkedIn.

Hey, Jamal promised me this and he didn't give me this or I had this really bad experience And we will look into it because one of the things I've said to every single person in my team and all of our mentees Is, I expect you to hold me to very high standards just the same way I'm gonna hold you to very high standards, and if you see me falling short of any of those standards, Hold me to account.

I will be the first person to look at it, reflect on it, and act on that feedback and see if there is anything else that we could be doing better. And I'm grateful to say ever since I've been in my career and ever since I've been in previous careers, there's never been a time where anyone has had the opportunity To say that I haven't responded to feedback.

Do I get everything right? Am I someone that is amazing all of the time? No, absolutely not. I'm human just like anyone else, right? I get things wrong. I make mistakes. I experiment with things. Do I learn from those mistakes? Yes, absolutely But none of the mistakes, none of the risks I take, none of things I try Ever come at a cost to anyone other than myself. And I always make sure that anytime I give my word anything i'm gonna make a promise We always deliver on those promises and that's why you see the academy, You see the students in the academy. You see my clients doing as well as it does.

We don't spend A dime on paid advertising. All of our customers, all of our mentees, all of our clients come through word of mouth. And when you see clients, listed companies, governments working with our boutique firm over the big four, over some of the top tier legal firms, it's all because of the reputation.

It's all because of the value that they see in what we bring to the table and so reminding ourselves as a team of the value We bring the community, reminding us of the value that we've served to them, Reminding why I got into this and what's been driving me And what's been keeping us performing at an excellent level throughout Was the thing that's leading us to do even better things and you know what, that couldn't have happened at a better Time because it gave me a chance to look back and now we are launching this year with even better programs.

At the end of last year, we did a soft launch for our dpia mastery program And that's something that we haven't introduced to the market before so we did a soft launch on that around my birthday. I gave it away for a ridiculous price because I just wanted to see how people respond to it and the feedback has been amazing.

We've had people who are new to data privacy. We've had people who are fully experienced in data privacy in various senior levels, all of them done the program and they all got value from it. And that's given me even more confidence that the programs that we're launching are going to be amazing because we've tested them. We've made sure that they solve all of the challenges that we set out to solve and what makes them superior, different and unique to what's on the market is Everyone else just tells you all of the things that you see in all the textbooks, right?

They focus on the theory, they focus on the legalese. What we do is we get rid of all of that make everything easy peasy and we focus on the practical side of it. We focus on how to operationalize the legal requirements into pragmatic solutions that actually help businesses to achieve the win win solutions.

And that's what people love about the value that we bring. That's why people love our programs. And I'm so excited to be bringing more of those programs out to the general public. These are The same kind of programs that we've been delivering to our corporate clients, to their internal teams.

And that's what we do at Kazient. We support the internal teams, right? And so they sometimes they need bespoke training, they need upskilling. And so all of these programs that we were previously delivering to corporate clients, we've revamped them and we're introducing them to the general public.

So more people in the academy can take advantage of those to become world class privacy professionals and transform their lives. Just like Tahir has done, just like you saw Moji do, just like you saw all of the people that have been on the podcast, you've heard their stories, how they've gone from zero to overnight hero in the space of three or four months.

And I want to help more people achieve similar results this year. I want to make sure that we help as many people as we can who really want to be at the top of their game. Who want to make a positive difference. Who want to be recognized for the value that they bring to the table and to really help them have the life that they deserve, get the reward that they deserve and also get the recognition and acknowledgement that they deserve too.

Jamilla: 42:03

So with what went on last year, I mean I just don't understand why people would think you were running a cult anyway. I don't think you'd be a particularly good cult leader, no offense.

Jamal: 42:13

None taken.

Jamilla: 42:14

I think perhaps people find enthusiasm, maybe they're not used to it.

Bringing something different and they find it weird.

Jamal: 42:25

It's because they can't understand it. When people can't understand something, they can't understand how all of these people are part of such an amazing community and how they're all supporting each other and how they're all sharing and how they're all sharing all of these amazing things about each other because they're used to people knocking them down, people correcting them, people telling them how little they know, right?

And don't take this from me, but just go on LinkedIn, have a look at people and just see how they behave. Somebody will go out and write an amazing post. Okay. They don't get everything right. Is it necessary to go and publicly shame them and remind them of how little they know or tell them that they're wrong or tell them things that are not going to help their confidence, things that are going to stop them from showing up.

And that's the reason 90 percent of people don't post on LinkedIn, because they're scared someone is going to come along and say something like that, and it's going to knock their confidence and it's going to destroy their credibility, to the point where I've had people on the podcast who, are doing posts with the comments turned off because of some of those unsavory characters that unfortunately exist in our industry.

Now, that's one side, but remember there is a whole other side where we are, where we actually promote that. We encourage you to get visible. We encourage you to work on your personal brand. We encourage you to share your takeaways because we recognize everybody is always learning. Nobody knows everything.

It's impossible for everyone to know everything because everyone comes across, they bring their own unique cultural approach. They bring their own industry experience. They bring their own cross industry experience. Everyone brings a unique approach to it.

And when we celebrate those differences, we can actually grow and learn together rather than looking for opportunities to belittle people to show how clever we are. The kind of people that want to show how clever I am by making someone else look bad. You're not that great, right? You're really not that great.

What you're doing is you're trying to look smart at somebody else's expense And yes, the friends who think like you the people in the industry who think like you they might be around But you know what that is not the way to show up in this industry That is not what privacy is all about when you think about what privacy is all about.

It's about respecting the individual. It's about respecting those basic human rights and respecting people's right to be let alone So if you see somebody who is coming up with something that might not be correct, just be kind and DM them and say, Hey, I noticed you made an error, or I noticed you said this, my understanding is this, and then get into a conversation.

And see how those relationships foster. The other thing that's really interesting which one of my close friends reminded me about when all this was going on is if they've got that much time To be focusing on your every move, If they've got that much time to be writing articles about you doing webinars about you What is it that they're doing?

Do they have no clients to serve? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to put that time and energy into serving their clients? Or is it because they've got nothing to do that? They're so fixated and focused on you. I don't know the answer to that question But what I do know is the reason I didn't have time to engage with those individuals, number one is because I didn't want to, It's just Not worth engaging in, like it's beneath me.

Number two is I actually have clients that I need to serve. I actually have mentees that are counting on my support. I actually have people who are waiting for me to deliver value to them to make sure that they get the clarity, the confidence, and the credibility they need to have a thriving career. So I don't have time to sit there feeling sorry for myself.

All I have to do is say, Hey, what are the lessons to learn from this? And how can I grow and get better? And one of the amazing things that we're launching this year is this new platform. It's amazing. It's got a community aspect to it. It's got gamification to it. It's also got a area where people can come and just socialize, ask any questions that they need, and all of our programs are there too.

Previously, the challenge was we had a community on one platform. And all of our programs were available in another place. Now everything is all in one place and we've got this amazing community who is really gelling and moving forward. And the other thing we've introduced this year, or we introduced at the end of last year, was we have our privacy pros mastermind circle now where we have some super special individuals from our community, and they've committed to coming together once a month where we have discussions, where we help each other out and where we really engage in focusing on what are the challenges that are upcoming and how can we best prepare to solve them while supporting each other and learning from each other's specialism.

So I'm really excited about the mastermind. I'm really excited about this new platform that we got. I'm so excited about launching and delivering all of these new programs that we have coming out for the amazing privacy pros.

The thing that surprises most people the most is the amount of mentees that we've managed to help around the globe.

The thousands of people that we've managed to help without even having a website, right? We don't even have a website. So all of our amazing individuals, they come through social platforms like LinkedIn and through referrals because they see the value in what we're doing. And to achieve the kind of results that we've achieved, to get the recognition like you can see all of the awards behind us there, to get all of that as a very small highly specialized team without spending any money on paid advertising is absolutely amazing.

And it speaks volumes to the potential of what we have. And I want to help more people. We can change more lives. We can transform more people and we can have a much better impact. And that's what the community is all about. So if you're listening to this and you're feeling a little bit isolated or you haven't connected with the community with me here, and you're somebody who is very interested in being your best self.

Being a world class privacy professional but for whatever reason you're lacking the skills the knowledge or the practical implementation of that right now. It doesn't matter get in touch If you're someone who wants to make a difference. A real difference in this world. If you're somebody who wants to advocate for privacy then get in touch and let's speak about Accelerating your progress and how we can make that happen.

The industry is growing. There is so many vacancies and recruiters and hiring managers can't find the right talent. Now it doesn't mean that there isn't enough people in the market. There is more than enough people in the market the challenge is Most people are mediocre at best, and therefore, those hiring managers, those recruiters, they don't want to recruit them.

Because if you look at the number of people who have certifications, who are looking for roles, and if you look at the number of jobs, it's very easy. Overnight, all of that can be filled. But recruiters and hiring managers, they're not actually hiring them, because they can't see that they're world class professionals.

And what they're looking for is world class professionals to bring onto their team who's really going to help them have a positive impact.

Jamilla: 49:05

I think often not sure how to sell ourselves without it coming.

Jamal: 49:09

Personal branding is one of the other reasons I encourage people to do this. And actually on our accelerator program, one of the modules, or one of the whole area pillars that we look at is personal branding. And I show them how to make the most of their online presence by creating valuable content. And if you've looked at some of the videos from some of the amazing people there, you will see how well they've done and how other people are inspired by them and how.

They get opportunities without ever having to apply for a job. So there is so much more to it than meets the eye And i'm just grateful that we attract such amazing people to the academy.

Jamilla: 49:43

Looking back, what's the most unexpected thing you've learned about yourself while doing this podcast

Jamal: 49:48

What's the most unexpected thing I've learned about myself doing this podcast?

Jamilla: 49:53

if anything?

Jamal: 49:54

I don't know what I've discovered about myself, but what it has helped me to do is to really finesse my active listening skills. And that's the biggest benefit I've seen to my practice from doing this podcast is it's really helped me to practice active listening even better because we have all these amazing guests coming to the podcast, right?

And sometimes when I’m listening to other people interviewing, The guests will say some amazing things and they just say okay or let's move on to the next question. One of the things I make sure that I do is I make sure that I’ve understood them correctly. So I’ll often Summarize what I've heard and repeat it back to them.

And that does two things for me. Number one, it helps me to make sure that I've actually been paying attention to the guest. But number two, the guests really value and appreciate that. And I think that's one of the reasons that leads to those relationships that then develop off the podcast is they feel valued and respected because they can see how much I'm paying attention to what they're saying and how much I want to actually learn from them and how much I appreciate the fact that they're here giving up their time.

And so that helps me to really establish great relationships moving forward.

Jamilla: 50:56

Yeah, I think it's important. People feel more listened to when you take something from what they've said and then, add bit on.

Afshar's got a question. So why the world of data privacy? What drew you in? And do you intend to stay within this field or venture out?

Jamal: 51:10

Ooh, great question! And Afshar, what you need to do to listen to that, to get the real answer from that, is go back 99 episodes and go to episode 1 and episode 3, where I share All of this. But just to give you a quick glimpse into what you can learn from that. One of the things that led me into the world of data privacy was when I was thinking about making a career change I wanted something that was meaningful.

I wanted something that was challenging And I also wanted something that would actually allow me to utilize some of the strengths and skills that I developed at that time. And data privacy seemed to be the perfect industry for me to make a positive impact, for me to do some meaningful work, and for me to really utilize and exploit some of the skills and values that I bring to the table.

So that's what drew me into privacy. What was fascinating at the time was that So much was changing and it's constantly evolving and no two days have been the same Since I entered into the data privacy field. That's what's gonna make me stay here as long as things keep changing As long as it doesn't get checkboxy Then I'm gonna continue to work towards my vision of creating a world where every woman every man and every child is enjoys freedom over their personal data.

And that's what I'm doing at the Privacy Pros academy is creating a community of people who buy into that vision, who also want to become world class professionals. Because look, I can't make that happen by myself. I'm not that powerful. I don't have that much influence. In fact, I'm not even anyone when in the greater context of things, right?

So I can't do that by myself. And for us to be able to achieve that vision, we need to make sure that the organizations, the businesses, the governments that are actually handling people's personal information are adopting honest and open practices. And through my consultancy, we can only serve a limited amount of Companies and organizations throughout our lifetime.

And even if we was to become a, listed multinational corporate conglomerate, there'd still be X amount of people or X amount of companies that we could have. We'd always be limited. However, if we focus on empowering professionals, We can touch thousands, hundreds of thousands of professionals all across the globe and empower them and support each other as a community to make sure that every organization that we come across that we're working for, that we're consulting for, we empower them to adopt those honest privacy practices and together we can achieve that vision.

Jamilla: 53:37

Thank you. Last year you released your book. What have you learned from that process? Is there a book two coming out anytime soon?

Jamal: 53:47

There are lots of publications in the pipeline. I'm not going to reveal too much about that right now.

What did I learn from the book?

I think it helped me to learn a lot of patience.

The whole process and the whole publishing industry, they operate on a different wavelength to me. Everything seems to take so much longer and everything doesn't make sense. But it's something that needs to be done. Like I still can't get my head around how the industry works and why things take so long, but they take as long as they take, that's the way the industry is.

And so I got to learn about what it takes to publish a book. I got to learn about the publishing industry itself and I got to have a lot of fun doing that. What has been really powerful from the book is it's actually helped me to help a lot more people than I was previously helping and every day I'll get at least one to three messages on LinkedIn from somebody who's just picked up the book and how grateful they are and how it's really helped them and made things easy peasy.

The most common one I get is how it's helped people to self study towards the CIPPE exam and how this gave them the clarity and confidence they needed to go and really ace that. But it's been really rewarding seeing it do so well in the amazon charts And so it went to number one before it was even released right in the uk, which was amazing. And then it went to bestseller in some other countries and then it went to number one bestseller in canada, in UK, in india and got international bestseller status and then this year on new year's day It was bestseller on amazon again.

It was the christmas day bestseller as well. And at the top of the year we had a request from Oxford university, the University of Cambridge, Trinity college dublin for a copy of my book.

Jamilla: 55:35

Amazing.

Jamal: 55:35

So I was like, wow, these people actually requesting a copy from the publisher.

That's amazing. So knowing that something that I spent so much time effort in is in some of the best libraries in the world is just really humbling. And it's such a great feeling to know that. But what's even more rewarding is the messages I get from people saying how much value they've got from the book.

Jamilla: 55:58

That's amazing.

Jamal: 55:59

It really is. It really is. The challenge I had before was the only way for people to benefit from the easy peasy clarity confidence we provide was to come in and roll onto a program in the academy and Some people for time constraints or financial constraints for whatever reason they weren't able to access those But this book now allows people at a very low cost, I think Amazon is selling it for £10 or something now, at a very low cost, get some real good value from the book without having to enroll into a program.

And what I've found is people who are actually enjoying the book, they're actually now inquiring more about the programs. And so I'm looking forward to serving all of those amazing individuals. And here's the thing, look, Thousands of people have bought the book. If you're one of the people that has bought the book, the best way you can support me is to go on Amazon and leave a review.

If you loved it, tell us why. If you hated it, leave a bad review. Tell us why. It's all feedback, right? I don't mind. But please just leave a review so other people who are thinking of getting the book it'll help them to make a decision about whether it's worth spending the money, getting it or not and share How it's actually helped you. That's what I would love for you to do after listening to this episode And you want to support me, you recognize the amount of money and energy that we spent into bringing 100 episodes to you. The one thing I ask you for is please go and leave an honest review of the book Please leave an honest review Of the podcast on whichever platform you're leaving it on because that's going to help us to make things even better. That's going to help us stay motivated to bring even more value to you at little or no cost and we are committed to making sure that we bring more value, more podcast, more webinars, more programs, more guides, more resources more everything else But we need you to support us and the best way you can support me right now is to go and Leave a review on amazon if you've purchased the book or if you're listening to the podcast, Leave a review on the platform that you're listening to.

Jamilla: 57:56

Yeah, it really does help. And it's really good to get feedback isn't it?

Jamal: 57:59

Yeah, absolutely. I always love Critical feedback because it gives us an opportunity to reflect and to improve And then we can go from strength to strength. It's great getting the wonderful praise but that wonderful praise if you're not careful makes you complacent and it thinks that what you're doing is good enough Yes, it is good enough, but you can't stay there, right?

You have to move forward. You have to constantly improve, you have to be innovative. You have to find new and better ways of doing things And that's what keeps me going is finding new And innovative ways of making things even simpler making things even easier and making things more accessible

Jamilla: 58:34

Yeah, definitely. To end the show, what message of gratitude would you give to all the listeners who have helped you reach this milestone?

Jamal: 58:41

I don't think I have the words that would do justice to the immense Gratitude that I have for the people who have been listening, who have been supporting me on linkedin, Who've bought the book who've attended our programs who have been saying all of these good things, when we are not present in the room and I just want to take a moment to say it's all of the Amazing things that I see from individuals outside of the organization that really energize me and motivate me to keep going.

It's all of your acknowledgements that help me to produce even more amazing things and help you get the results that you want and need And i've dedicated my life to serving people. Because we have such a short amount of time on this planet And the best way to spend that time is by being of value and by serving others.

So I'm dedicated to serving people and I'd love the opportunity to serve you too in greater ways than I may have done already. And I recognize that we're only three years in, which makes us a pretty much a toddler. We've got a long way to go. We've got so much more to do and I'm dedicated to make sure that we focus on delivering excellence with everything that we do moving forward.

And from the bottom of my heart, I just want to say thank you to all of you who have been supporting All of our efforts who have been supporting us on all of the different platforms that we have and who will continue To support us because of the value that you bring remember hold us to account If you see something that could be better Let me know if you see something that you don't like or you think wasn't correct.

Correct me, Address me, pull me up on it. I would love to the opportunity to learn and to listen and grow and become better So I can better serve so we can create that world where every woman Every man and every child enjoys freedom over the personal information as a team

Jamilla: 01:00:30

Thank you so much, and thank you everyone for joining us on our hundredth episode.

Jamal: 01:00:36

Until next time peace be with you.

If you enjoyed this episode, be sure to subscribe, like and share so you're notified when a new episode is released. Remember to join the Privacy Pros Academy Facebook group where we answer your questions. Thank you so much for listening. I hope you're leaving with some great things that will add value on your journey as a world class Privacy Pro.

Please leave us a 4 or 5 star review. And if you'd like to appear on a future episode of our podcast, Or have a suggestion for a topic you'd like to hear more about, please send an email to team at caseant. co. uk. Until next time, peace be with you.